Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961

Fast Eddie

Fast Eddie

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I have a Harley. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the jokes and snipes, but honestly, unless you’ve ridden a good one, for some distance, your opinions don’t count.

Modern Harleys actually offer very good real world performance. They go, stop and turn FAR better than most folk imagine possible. Actually their performance is far in excess of normal traffic conditions or legal limits. In fact, their performance is at least on a par with the kind of speeds most road riders are actually comfortable with.

AND they achieve this with utter reliability and comfort. Moreover they also achieve it with a style, heritage and above all, character that is basically unique.

Yes the Japanese make some great Harley clones that appeal to many, but the miss the mark significantly with style and heritage and they miss the mark totally with character.

Harleys, love or hate them, do offer a unique package. And that’s why, despite the pundits who slag them off, they keep selling.

WTF has this got to do with the thread title ??

Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.

Yes, of course Triumph and others offer bikes that look vaguely similar from 20ft, and they’re supremely reliable and offer great performance, but they don’t get close in terms of the characterful riding experience.

So, whilst I know they’re not for everyone (just like Harley’s), I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only if TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
 
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Fast Eddie said:
I have a Harley. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the jokes and snipes, but honestly, unless you’ve ridden a good one, for some distance, your opinions don’t count.

Modern Harleys actually offer very good real world performance. They go, stop and turn FAR better than most folk imagine possible. Actually their performance is far in excess of normal traffic conditions or legal limits. In fact, their performance is at least on a par with the kind of speeds most road riders are actually comfortable with.

AND they achieve this with utter reliability and comfort. Moreover they also achieve it with a style, heritage and above all, character that is basically unique.

Yes the Japanese make some great Harley clones that appeal to many, but the miss the mark significantly with style and heritage and they miss the mark totally with character.

Harleys, love or hate them, do offer a unique package. And that’s why, despite the pundits who slag them off, they keep selling.

WTF has this got to do with the thread title ??

Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.

Yes, of course Triumph and others offer bikes that look vaguely similar from 20ft, and they’re supremely reliable and offer great performance, but they don’t get close in terms of the characterful riding experience.

So I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only of TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
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@Fast Eddie I believe you're right.

More importantly, I believe TVS agree with you and it's why they bought the brand.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I have a Harley. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the jokes and snipes, but honestly, unless you’ve ridden a good one, for some distance, your opinions don’t count.

Modern Harleys actually offer very good real world performance. They go, stop and turn FAR better than most folk imagine possible. Actually their performance is far in excess of normal traffic conditions or legal limits. In fact, their performance is at least on a par with the kind of speeds most road riders are actually comfortable with.

AND they achieve this with utter reliability and comfort. Moreover they also achieve it with a style, heritage and above all, character that is basically unique.

Yes the Japanese make some great Harley clones that appeal to many, but the miss the mark significantly with style and heritage and they miss the mark totally with character.

Harleys, love or hate them, do offer a unique package. And that’s why, despite the pundits who slag them off, they keep selling.

WTF has this got to do with the thread title ??

Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.

Yes, of course Triumph and others offer bikes that look vaguely similar from 20ft, and they’re supremely reliable and offer great performance, but they don’t get close in terms of the characterful riding experience.

So I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only of TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
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Keep having the thoughts and I agree completely with what you say.
It’s a stand alone motorcycle and not to be compared with anything else.
Enjoy it for what it is, I do.
Some days it’s a Ducati beater and some days it isn’t. Depends on who’s riding it.
Either way my 961 makes me smile.
 
I think it would be awesome if they continued it. I would like to see a trade in program also ie: trade in your old 961 for a re-engineered TVS Norton 961.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I have a Harley. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the jokes and snipes, but honestly, unless you’ve ridden a good one, for some distance, your opinions don’t count.

Modern Harleys actually offer very good real world performance. They go, stop and turn FAR better than most folk imagine possible. Actually their performance is far in excess of normal traffic conditions or legal limits. In fact, their performance is at least on a par with the kind of speeds most road riders are actually comfortable with.

AND they achieve this with utter reliability and comfort. Moreover they also achieve it with a style, heritage and above all, character that is basically unique.

Yes the Japanese make some great Harley clones that appeal to many, but the miss the mark significantly with style and heritage and they miss the mark totally with character.

Harleys, love or hate them, do offer a unique package. And that’s why, despite the pundits who slag them off, they keep selling.

WTF has this got to do with the thread title ??

Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.

Yes, of course Triumph and others offer bikes that look vaguely similar from 20ft, and they’re supremely reliable and offer great performance, but they don’t get close in terms of the characterful riding experience.

So I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only of TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
Click to expand...
Get a smile on my face every time I open the garage and there she is waiting to be ridden. Let’s hope TVS continue with the 961 got to say mine is pretty flawless.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I have a Harley. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the jokes and snipes, but honestly, unless you’ve ridden a good one, for some distance, your opinions don’t count.

Modern Harleys actually offer very good real world performance. They go, stop and turn FAR better than most folk imagine possible. Actually their performance is far in excess of normal traffic conditions or legal limits. In fact, their performance is at least on a par with the kind of speeds most road riders are actually comfortable with.

AND they achieve this with utter reliability and comfort. Moreover they also achieve it with a style, heritage and above all, character that is basically unique.

Yes the Japanese make some great Harley clones that appeal to many, but the miss the mark significantly with style and heritage and they miss the mark totally with character.

Harleys, love or hate them, do offer a unique package. And that’s why, despite the pundits who slag them off, they keep selling.

WTF has this got to do with the thread title ??

Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.

Yes, of course Triumph and others offer bikes that look vaguely similar from 20ft, and they’re supremely reliable and offer great performance, but they don’t get close in terms of the characterful riding experience.

So, whilst I know they’re not for everyone (just like Harley’s), I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only if TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
Click to expand...
Before I owned a low rider s and now my second, a low rider ST, I would of disagreed with your comments about you raving on the Harley.

But as we get older our views and taste change. One of the reasons why I never bought a Harley was, well, because they are all over the place. I see them everywhere. In some ways that’s a good thing.
Easy to get parts, dealers are every 20 miles or so, (at least in my area, we have 4 Harley dealers in a 60 miles radius).

One of the reason why I finally stepped into a Harley dealer was all my close friends own a Harley and when my cousin went to buy one I went with him and liked the Low Rider S, much so as I bought it.

As you said, they are dependable, make good power and torque, simple, pretty decent handling and braking etc. I since sold that low rider S and just bought a new 2022 low rider st with the 117 Milwaukee 8.

The good thing about the Milwaukee 8 is, they have the potential to make 200hp easy. Plus you can shop anywhere for parts.

Perhaps if TVS takes a page out of Harley’s air cooled dependability and simplified design they too can revive the 961 and have a dependable awesome performance bike.
 
Not to de-rail my own thread here Scott, but, how does the Lowrider ST compare to the Lowrider S?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Not to de-rail my own thread here Scott, but, how does the Lowrider ST compare to the Lowrider S?
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1” Taller suspension
117 same as CVO. vs 114 Milwaukee 8
A few aesthetic changes.

I went with the Low Rider ST this time because it comes with the fairing and bags. I figured for the price of the low rider s Verus’s the st, the st was a better deal, if I ever want to remove the bags or fairing it’s easy to do.

I don’t have any good pics yet as I just picked it up last Saturday. But I’ll be doing some upgrades to it soon.
 

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Voodooo said:
1” Taller suspension
117 same as CVO. vs 114 Milwaukee 8
A few aesthetic changes.

I went with the Low Rider ST this time because it comes with the fairing and bags. I figured for the price of the low rider s Verus’s the st, the st was a better deal, if I ever want to remove the bags or fairing it’s easy to do.

I don’t have any good pics yet as I just picked it up last Saturday. But I’ll be doing some upgrades to it soon.
Click to expand...
I think we have just found out what bike you are taking that long trip on !
 
Fast Eddie said:
I have a Harley. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the jokes and snipes, but honestly, unless you’ve ridden a good one, for some distance, your opinions don’t count.

Modern Harleys actually offer very good real world performance. They go, stop and turn FAR better than most folk imagine possible. Actually their performance is far in excess of normal traffic conditions or legal limits. In fact, their performance is at least on a par with the kind of speeds most road riders are actually comfortable with.

AND they achieve this with utter reliability and comfort. Moreover they also achieve it with a style, heritage and above all, character that is basically unique.

Yes the Japanese make some great Harley clones that appeal to many, but the miss the mark significantly with style and heritage and they miss the mark totally with character.

Harleys, love or hate them, do offer a unique package. And that’s why, despite the pundits who slag them off, they keep selling.

WTF has this got to do with the thread title ??

Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.

Yes, of course Triumph and others offer bikes that look vaguely similar from 20ft, and they’re supremely reliable and offer great performance, but they don’t get close in terms of the characterful riding experience.

So, whilst I know they’re not for everyone (just like Harley’s), I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only if TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
Click to expand...
What puts Harley at the top of my list is the comfort. I also like the look of the engine and the way it feels on the road.
 
trident sam said:
Jokes and snipes about Harleys ?.......... can't say I've ever heard any :)
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For me personally, it's perhaps not so much the bikes, it's mote about _so_ many of the owners.

When I, as a owner of a couple of not so quiet bikes, find myself getting annoyed about the group of Hardly Dangerous* "bikers" who turn up at the local harbour grill and basically make conversation impossible within 20m of their bikes, I find myself wondering why the police do not enforce the existing laws about noisy vehicles.

The older Harldlys are truly agricultural - I've never seen so much cast iron doing so little, but I do admit that the current ones are much better done.

I would still be too embarrassed to actually buy one though.

* HD - converting petrol into noise - slowly...
 
Fast Eddie said:
Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.
......

So, whilst I know they’re not for everyone (just like Harley’s), I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only if TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
Click to expand...
Since the modern classic category is a real thing now, I agree that Norton (TVS) can actually find a market for a 961-like machine.
As you say, it will have to have reliability, and I would add, modern reliability and operational functionality.
It may have a classic appearance, but will have to operate/run like a modern EFI machine, or the motorcycling public will not accept it.

From the crankshaft up, I think the 961 design is mechanically acceptable, with exception of the rockers, and EFI/TB.
It's the primary, gearbox, balancer design, lubrication and breather components that need redesign.
And just to avoid licensing issues with Jinland, add a few silly cc's, make it a 1000cc not a 961.

Just "patching-up" the 961's faults, will result in another product failure, IMHO.
A full redesign will be expensive, and there may not be sufficient time for Norton to recover their investment before gov't regulations band the sale of ICE vehicles.

If Norton produced a new 961(1000) like the one I described in a previous post, I would certainly be open to knocking out the rear wall on my garage to make space for another bike.

Factory visit April 1st 2022

Ok I have to say that despite it being April the First this is not an April Fools Day joke, unlike the assembly process of Old New Norton. Thank you New New Norton for the hospitality and factory visit I have just returned from; last time it was to see the new facilities waiting to be used but...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
 
I'm with Nigel and the rest of you on this. The big twin Harley's are great bikes for their purpose. I rode a couple in my youth, and they were very comfortble cruisers even then. I'd probably own one by now, except at my advanced age I can no longer deal with bikes in the 675 lbs. to 900 lbs. (wet) range. The problem isn't in riding them, but in maneuvering them around at very low speeds in parking areas. If one of those started to lean a bit too far, I wouldn't have the strength to yank it back in time. And if I dropped it, I'd never be able to pick it up again. I did own a Sportster for a brief period, and might even try one again, but even those are beyond my comfortable weight limit now. I wouldn't even own my 961 (491 lbs. wet) now, except that it's a Norton and I've been a Norton guy too long to change now. My solution to the problem is a lightweight MK3 I think I will finally have together in time for this year's summer riding.

Ken
 
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lcrken said:
I'm with Nigel and the rest of you on this. The big twin Harley's are great bikes for their purpose. I rode a couple in my youth, and they were very comfortble cruisers even then. I'd probably own one by now, except at my advanced age I can no longer deal with bikes in the 675 lbs. to 900 lbs. (wet) range. The problem isn't in riding them, but in maneuvering them around at very low speeds in parking areas. If one of those started to lean a bit to far, I wouldn't have the strength to yank it back in time. And if I dropped it, I'd never be able to pick it up again. I did own a Sportster for a brief period, and might even try one again, but even those are beyond my comfortable weight limit now. I wouldn't even own my 961 (491 lbs. wet) now, except that it's a Norton and I've been a Norton guy too long to change now. My solution to the problem is a lightweight MK3 I think I will finally have together in time for this year's summer riding.

Ken
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Ken,

I might like to know what a lightweight MK3 looks like so I can put my MK3 on a diet too.
 
Ken, you've done well to get the 961 down to 491 wet.

Cycle had a wet weight of 520 for the stock bike.
After seeing an older friend hospitalized from a heavy bike tip over, I'm of the same mind, bikes with excessive weight are not of interest, characterful or otherwise.
I plan to trim about 25 pounds off the Thruxton this year to get it just under 450 fully fueled.
That's heavy enough.
I can see where the two light bikes I have here will become the favourites as I age and lose strength.

. I guess the 920 is also a MK3, sort of.

Glen
 
Wow where did all this Harley lurve come from? Yes I have a Humpy Dumpty as well - xg750a and it is an absolutely brilliant bike. Bought 90% practicality and 10% for the name. And because it was made in India some call it a Bad Bike (that is ‘60s bloke bad not cap on backwards Bad). Unless you are playing Top Trumps with speed,hp if a bike makes you happy it’s a Good Bike. There I just made all road tests irrelevant. Get yer leg over it and see if it makes you happy. Hey that’s good; I think I have a range of fridge magnets in the making!
 
BritTwit said:
Since the modern classic category is a real thing now, I agree that Norton (TVS) can actually find a market for a 961-like machine.
As you say, it will have to have reliability, and I would add, modern reliability and operational functionality.
It may have a classic appearance, but will have to operate/run like a modern EFI machine, or the motorcycling public will not accept it.

From the crankshaft up, I think the 961 design is mechanically acceptable, with exception of the rockers, and EFI/TB.
It's the primary, gearbox, balancer design, lubrication and breather components that need redesign.
And just to avoid licensing issues with Jinland, add a few silly cc's, make it a 1000cc not a 961.

Just "patching-up" the 961's faults, will result in another product failure, IMHO.
A full redesign will be expensive, and there may not be sufficient time for Norton to recover their investment before gov't regulations band the sale of ICE vehicles.

If Norton produced a new 961(1000) like the one I described in a previous post, I would certainly be open to knocking out the rear wall on my garage to make space for another bike.

Factory visit April 1st 2022

Ok I have to say that despite it being April the First this is not an April Fools Day joke, unlike the assembly process of Old New Norton. Thank you New New Norton for the hospitality and factory visit I have just returned from; last time it was to see the new facilities waiting to be used but...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
Click to expand...
Speaking about the USA market only. Unfortunately the market has already soured on Norton along with a small network of soured dealers. You might find one dealer who might want to sell them as long as they aren't a service nightmare. The new version would need to be 100% well ok 99% flawless to get back any credibility on the 961. Using technology from 1999 is not the way to do it. I mean even some modern fuel injection would be a step up. We have taken apart a lot of the 961's and you can immediately see how poorly they are made. So much is design flaws that keep getting duplicated instead of fixed. Its not just small changes that need to be made, its a complete shift. Then once you do that you are back to getting the bike approved for a US Market which means passing CARB again. Will they go through all the trouble just to sell a handful of motorcycles? You can't answer that until you actually know how many they sold here in the first place. We have talked to some of the original dealers and the numbers sold don't add up to much. In fact no one actually knows how many are even in the USA. Also look at the classifieds over in the UK. Many new bikes still sitting for sale and last I looked 20-30 used on the market place that haven't moved much

The look of the motorcycle is what draws many in but to have something that is so inconsistent from one motorcycle to the next is just crazy. Its like the Delorean of motorcycles.
 
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