Where were Commando's 1st started up?

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Whatever happened to the British motorcycle industry, by Bert Hopwood, is a good read.

He worked for Turner in the beginning and was there until the end.
A pretty good perspective from his point of view.

Ken.
 
rx7171 said:
...Blunders by management who thought they were making kitchen appliances, with stupid union activity to boot.
While management certainly contributed to Norton's demise in a very significant way, they didn't kill it. I think that was the doings of some union workers. It wasn't management welding gas tanks poorly, not properly assembling the bikes, etc. Many who worked there did great work and to great pride in it, unfortunately, not everyone.

Things have to be looked at in context. There was tremendous labour unrest in England through the 60's-70's. Just 15 years earlier England had come through World War II, and it, along with it's allies, spent that 15 years a) trying to stop the spread and rise of communism/USSR and b) helping Germany and Japan rebuild, buy new modern equipment, etc. In 1970 alone, over 10 million working days were lost through strike action in England. In the 60s new technology put an emphasis on efficiency and productivity. Unions had to work hard to organise re-training for members made redundant by new methods and techniques. No one was happy.

Automobile production in Western Europe had just increased 10-fold from the beginning of the 50's to the end of the 60's, motorcycles were enjoying a major resurgence as well (especially in the large US market) and British bikes were selling well. Then came the Japanese bikes and British labour unrest, at a time when British manufactures needed to re-invest in modernizing pre-war equipment, they had inexpensive imports from low-wage countries and disgruntled workers demanding more pay or they'd not work, or worse, it was a perfect storm.

Definitely, Nortons had several design flaws that kept them from being as competitive and reliable as they could have been with just a handful of relatively easy fixes, but these weren't the problems that led to Nortons falling apart early and often. If the bikes had been put together properly initially, as is done now when they're restored, then there would have been far fewer problems (timing issues, poor quality metals, weak coils, etc.). Many were fixable with just little trouble. Some were not as they were due to some extremely poor workmanship and sabotage that was part of a common union tactic to blackmail management into submission at that time in England.

My original 1973 Norton 850 Commando that I bought in 19973 came from the factory with two major areas of what can only be considered sabotage by the factory workers:
1 - the tab washers for the inner chain case were not tabbed over
2 - the con-rod nuts and not been splayed

These are not minor oversights, they are each severe and significant and either will eventually lead to the destruction of expensive parts and did on my bike.

The first to go (@ about 5,000 miles) was one of the bolts that hold the inner chain case to the crankcase. It backed itself out (due to none of the three tab washers being bent over). The bolt got caught between the engine sprocket and the primary chain, taking out both plus breaking the inner primary case. Expensive!

The second to go (@ just over 10,000 miles) was a connecting-rod nut backing itself off the connecting-rod bolt. These were supposed to be splayed (hit with a cold-chisel) at the factory during bottom-end assembly, not one of the four nuts had been splayed in any of the eight (total) spots available. Again, this lead to very serious consequences. The bolt backed itself off about 600 miles from home and got caught between the flywheel and the crankcase as I was slowing down on the highway (on a bridge with no pull-off area actually) to identify the noise from the bike. That resulted in a star-burst in the crankcase!

Mine is not the only tale of such totally unnecessary sabotage. A friend worked at the local Triumph/MG/Jaguar dealer at the time and they had a new Jaguar sedan that the customer was totally frustrated with. It would make a noise, as if something were loose in the rear-end going over bumps and rough roads, but they just couldn't figure out where the noise was coming from. Finally, after several trips to the dealer, two mechanics (versus the previous one) took the car for a drive. The second mechanic sat in the rear to listen for the noise and successfully identified that the noise was coming from the lower rear C-pillar of the roof not from the rear suspension, etc., as had previously been suspected. When they removed the headliner of the car and the rear trim panels, etc., they discovered that one of the assembly-line workers had tack-welded a welding rod (with a washer welded to the other end) to the inside of the pillar and on rough jolts it would tap against the pillar.

The workers got the results they were looking for, but didn't have the foresight to recognise that if they crippled the company they'd be out of a job, let alone recognize that they'd virtually destroy the entire British motor vehicle industry. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If I sound bitter, I apologize, but their actions cost me thousands of dollars I could not afford to spend from 1973-1976, not to mention time and aggravation. This at a time when I was trying to put myself through university, having worked as a truck driver, stevedore, and for the railroad to buy the Norton. I worked two jobs, twelve hours a day, to save the extra money and most of it was gone after my second year of university at which point I quit university, sold the bike, and moved out west, thanks to the worker sabotage of the Norton plant workers forcing me to rebuild the bike twice within two years.
 
Alan, appreciate your detailing the misery that filters down to us innocents form political/financial policy coming down hard from above. Must as the bankster media would have us believe the red white and blue flag nations were set against communists and nazi regimes its was City of London that commissioned and grub staked the likes of Karl Marx so British Industry was handy social experiment grounds. Somewhere I found direct Parliament reference to this but not on hand right now. We little people can't do much about the global scale movers/shakers and the deeper you honestly dig the sicker/sadder it gets so on your own to gets as depressed world view as mine.
 
Hobot, I agree, there are plenty of things/people/actions to get depressed and concerned about, however, I prefer to consider the glass half-full.

Far, far more people (# and %) live much better lives than 100/200/300+ years ago.

I'm not sure we'll ever see some of the best parts of the 60's-70's (as I remember them :wink: ), but, if we look at long periods of time, things are better today for more than ever before. There are still plenty of things wrong and problems, etc., but I think, on balance, they're as good or better overall than they've ever been. Certainly, there is more potential opportunity for more than ever before and much greater equality for women, children, and those of all ethnic backgrounds than ever before. Plenty of room for improvement but there has been a lot progress in important areas.

For me, no matter what the problems, getting out on a bike and going for a good ride certainly helps me.
 
Alan,

Most of what you wrote rings true.

What you failed to include was the failure to upgrade the product itself essentially selling a 40 year old engine design against modern (for the time) Japanese technology. We also taught the Japanese how to beat us at our own game. So management failures, labor unrest, old equipment, obsolete product designs and government misdeeds all converged to cause the collapse.
 
Alan....I accept you know what happened to you bike....I am however curious about the comment that big end nuts should be 'splayed'....

I have never heard of that term and have never heard of a cold chisel being taken to big end nuts....

I have heard of 'staking', which is done with a pointed punch, and in particular is done to the flywheel nuts on Commandos, but not big end nuts.

Every big end nut I have used on a Commando is a lock nut...service advice is not to re-use them, use new nuts, not to stake them....

But no one else commented....am I wrong?
 
The 70s in the UK were difficult times, for all sorts of reasons. A couple of examples...
1/ Between 71 and 75 I worked at a well known shipbuilder in Southampton. Due to the country being in such dire straits the Government imposed a three day working week to preserve coal and oil reserves. This meant that, at a stroke peoples' wages were cut by 40%.
2/ In the late 70s I worked for the Government as a ships draftsman. The last three years (77,78,79) were cold winters. Each year we were snowed in for a few days. Anyway, the building that I was working in was built in 1943 as an emergency hospital for possible D-Day casualties, which fortunately did not happen in the scale envisaged. The buildings were built with a 10 year life, we were still in them 30 years later. As a result of the utility construction they were not insulated and in the cold weather took a lot of heating. The heating oil was budgeted on a monthly basis. If the heating was turned up more oil was used. In each of the three years the monthly allocation of oil was insufficient to heat the buildings, so the heat was turned down to a point were the oil would last, and the heating was effective enough to prevent freezing of the heating system. The temperature in the office was sometimes down to under 40 degrees F. This meant that I would stand at my drawing board, with Firemans boots, sea boot socks, quilted motorcycle trousers and jacket, drawing parts of the latest frigate for the Real Navy. A trace of irony there.
3/ At the same time as the fuel oil restrictions there were planned power cuts. Which meant that the lights would go out on a regular basis. During Winter it's light from about 9 in the morning until about 3 or 3.30 in the afternoon. Working hours were from about 8 until about 4.30. So in their infinite wisdom the administrators decided that the only sensible thing to do was to issue people with candles(!!!!) If you worked at a desk you got one candle, if at a drawing board you got two.....incredible. As a result for 3 years on the trot there were times when, I was standing at my board, dressed up like a Michelin Man in near total darkness, my workplace illuminated by a pair of candles.
4/ At one point I had to find a company to make some fibreglass bits. This meant traveling around investigating factories and manufacturing capacity. The number of places that I went to that were obviously in terminal decline was terrifying.
.....and we were the lucky ones
If you told youngsters these days they just wouldn't believe you. (with apologies to Monty Python)

People sometimes ask me why I moved to Australia in 1980..................
cheers
wakeup
 
You beat me to this one Steve. I'll buy the tab washers not being turned up but I doubt it was sabotage. more likely a simple mistake that wasn't spotted at quality assurance (if there was any) The two parts of the con rods are marked with a small chisel mark but the nuts are not staked or splayed. If they took 10,000miles to let go, there will be a bit more to it than that. I agree with Alan's initial assessment of the problems in the motorcycle industry though
 
I was an apprentice toolmaker during the three day week. I remember the engineering union, of which I was the only member in the small factory, made up my wages with an allowance. We had some pretty shagged out machinery there as well. I left and joined the RAF and after engineering with them for 4 years, moved onto flying in the venerable Wessex. That was shagged out as well. :D somewhere in the middle of that, I bought my Commando. guess what, that shagged itself out too. Twice. :lol:
 
gripper said:
I was an apprentice toolmaker during the three day week. I remember the engineering union, of which I was the only member in the small factory, made up my wages with an allowance. We had some pretty shagged out machinery there as well. I left and joined the RAF and after engineering with them for 4 years, moved onto flying in the venerable Wessex. That was shagged out as well. :D somewhere in the middle of that, I bought my Commando. guess what, that shagged itself out too. Twice. :lol:

Fortunately for me I joined the RAF in '71 and stayed until '80 (and thank you for the small pension you started paying me last year chaps).....

So I missed the harshesh aspects of UK life and the economy during pretty much the whole decade....the biggest effect it had on me was going to Webbs in Lincoln to get Norton parts nin '74/'75(a lot as I started racing it)....and Webby (as we called him, but it wasn't his name!) getting out a new price list from Norton every month....all the above and then 27% inflation....thanks Ted, Harold and Jim (Crisis?, what Crisis?)....

wakeup, I don't understand why you waited until 1980 ;-)
 
dennisgb said:
...the failure to upgrade the product itself essentially selling a 40 year old engine design against modern (for the time) Japanese technology. We also taught the Japanese how to beat us at our own game. So management failures, labor unrest, old equipment, obsolete product designs and government misdeeds all converged to cause the collapse.
Dennis, I only made a minor allusion to that because I'm not sure it had as big an effect on the demise of Norton as we might think. It certainly did result in significant lost sales, but if the bikes were more reliable (put together properly with a few small design changes) they might have been able to survive in a niche market. I really don't know, but think there was that possibility. After all, the 1973 BMW /5 was as old a design. The 1974 BMW /6, especially with the R90S, wasn't ground-breaking technology by any stretch, but it was sufficient an improvement along with the extraordinary marketing skills and ram-rod stubborn attitude of Bob Lutz (Exec VP BMW Sales, subsequent VP Ford, GM and Chrysler) that saved BMW motorcycles from almost certain demise and that lead to helping turn around the entire company. Bob rode a Honda CB750 at the time and when he convinced BMW to build the R90S he demanded that it have a minimum of 67HP great brakes (for the day), etc. Hans Muth, the bike's designer devised many aspects that kept costs low and production flexible. With a far less disgruntled workforce they made it happen.


SteveA said:
...curious about the comment that big end nuts should be 'splayed'....
I have never heard of that term and have never heard of a cold chisel being taken to big end nuts....
I have heard of 'staking', which is done with a pointed punch, and in particular is done to the flywheel nuts on Commandos, but not big end nuts.
Every big end nut I have used on a Commando is a lock nut...service advice is not to re-use them, use new nuts, not to stake them....
But no one else commented....am I wrong?
gripper said:
You beat me to this one Steve. I'll buy the tab washers not being turned up but I doubt it was sabotage. more likely a simple mistake that wasn't spotted at quality assurance (if there was any) The two parts of the con rods are marked with a small chisel mark but the nuts are not staked or splayed. If they took 10,000miles to let go, there will be a bit more to it than that. I agree with Alan's initial assessment of the problems in the motorcycle industry though
That is my recollection, but you know what they say - the mind is the second thing to go.

I've looked at the workshop manual and it makes no mention of it, so perhaps I've confused it with some other bottom-end rebuild, but I have a very clear recollection of it being the Norton. I did rebuild the bottom-ends of a 66 GTO 1-2 years before that and my VW van a 2 years after the Norton, and worked on a few others (BMW M3, 289 Ford, Fiat 124 Spider, 383 Chrysler, original Mini, International Scout, etc.) but my recollection is it being the Norton.

I'm definitely not saying my recollection is correct as the old noggin has been put through too much prior to and since then. Seven major concussions (racing cars/bikes, mountain climbing fall, etc.). Two within 24 hours, and then a lot of anti-rejection drugs over the past 30 years for 3 cornea transplants. Just got the doctor's call as I'm typing this and there is a transplant cornea waiting for me so I'll be back on high doses of drugs the day after tomorrow for my 4th transplant - looks like the restoration on the 850 will take a bit longer now.

Regarding something else going on for the bike to get to 10,000 miles before the nut backed itself off, there was nothing apparent and that and the resultant damage were the only things fixed in that rebuild. Had to go up one size on the pistons/rings due to a little damage on the cylinder where the rod let go, but everything appeared directly related to the nut.

My recollection is that the nuts had two slots (like from a very thin hacksaw blade) on either side and they had the look of a nyloc nut but were not. They were tightened to the prescribed torque and then a cold-chisel was used to splay the bottom slightly so that it would not loosen. I don't think that would leave one with a reusable rod bolt as the manual states they were/are, so it would appear that my memory has a hole in it. Now I'm wondering what the heck it could have been.
 
AlanColes said:
It certainly did result in significant lost sales, but if the bikes were more reliable (put together properly with a few small design changes) they might have been able to survive in a niche market. I really don't know, but think there was that possibility. After all, the 1973 BMW /5 was as old a design. The 1974 BMW /6, especially with the R90S, wasn't ground-breaking technology by any stretch, but it was sufficient an improvement along with the extraordinary marketing skills and ram-rod stubborn attitude of Bob Lutz (Exec VP BMW Sales, subsequent VP Ford, GM and Chrysler) that saved BMW motorcycles from almost certain demise and that lead to helping turn around the entire company. Bob rode a Honda CB750 at the time and when he convinced BMW to build the R90S he demanded that it have a minimum of 67HP great brakes (for the day), etc. Hans Muth, the bike's designer devised many aspects that kept costs low and production flexible. With a far less disgruntled workforce they made it happen.

We could bring Moto Guzzi and Ducati into the discussion but not sure any of it applies other than they all struggled during that same time period due to the Japanese dropping a better built and cheaper bike on the market.

A couple of things always stood out to me. First, the British bike manufacturer's had a strangle hold on the American market from after the war until the mid 60's. Many poor management decisions where made during this time period...fat and happy sort of mistakes. Then when the bottom dropped out, the British government dumps Triumph and BSA on Norton...the impact of this is huge to a relatively small company that was actually surviving at the time. Then the government pulled the funding they promised Norton. This never happened to BMW...or Moto Guzzi...or Ducati.
 
dennisgb said:
Then when the bottom dropped out, the British government dumps Triumph and BSA on Norton...the impact of this is huge to a relatively small company that was actually surviving at the time. Then the government pulled the funding they promised Norton. This never happened to BMW...or Moto Guzzi...or Ducati.

I've always thought that this is the crux of the whole NV debacle. It's to Dennis Poores credit that the new NVT that emerged almost made it.

cheers
wakeup
 
...and poor old Royal Enfield cowering in the cave, under Norton's command, was
stabbed in the back upon the Field of Honor at the very moment victory was at hand.
Cue Series III Interceptor rose colored goggles chat.


They ALL went to the wall. And the blame is shared equally.
Members memories of Austerity - MkII worthy stuff.
 
dennisgb wrote: Then when the bottom dropped out, the British government dumps Triumph and BSA on Norton...the impact of this is huge to a relatively small company that was actually surviving at the time. Then the government pulled the funding they promised Norton. This never happened to BMW...or Moto Guzzi...or Ducati.

Dead on dennis. I have found the parliament archived text on the factoids on their combining similar businesses to see how workers would handle it, nothing else, no expectations to survive, just to see how much Govt control could change ideologies and human behavior. Norton could not keep up with demand in that era but prevented from expanding by powers beyond the factory management. Its a bitter colored pill to track this down to Matrix level which then may leave ya as crazy as me on world view and knowing how it might of been if just fair market play at work.
 
hobot said:
Dead on dennis. I have found the parliament archived text on the factoids on their combining similar businesses to see how workers would handle it, nothing else, no expectations to survive, just to see how much Govt control could change ideologies and human behavior. Norton could not keep up with demand in that era but prevented from expanding by powers beyond the factory management. Its a bitter colored pill to track this down to Matrix level which then may leave ya as crazy as me on world view and knowing how it might of been if just fair market play at work.

There was a lot of strange stuff going on back then and I don't claim to be an expert on this or the British Government, but Meridan was held at bay for 9 months until the workforce went from some 1700 down to 500...not sure if Poore was involved in this or not...it's very suspicious either way. The whole socialist experiment was questionable from the start. The problem was "What to do with all these workers?" with an obviously smaller motorcycle industry in the future. The way they went about it ended any chance that anyone would survive.

Pointing a finger at build quality is only one piece of the puzzle as most of us here know. It was a combination of factors and such a sad story to those of us who love British iron.
 
The collapse seems to have more to do with factors other than a straight bike to bike comparison.
Forty years later we can still compare the bikes easily and Norton comes out on top by a wide margin.
If I am going on a long ride through the mountains, or headed to California on the 101 or in a hurry on the I-5, do I want to take the CB 750 or the 850 Commando?

-Compared to the Honda, The Norton has something like 40% more torque on tap per pound of machine and rider at 70 MPH. This is really nice all of the time, but especially when carrying a passenger and luggage.

- The Norton is completely smooth at highway speeds. At 70-75 MPH , the bar end mirrors on my MK3 850 are as clear as the rearview mirror in a new car. Even when new, my CB750 produced a horrible tingling vibration at highway speeds. It buzzed me and made the mirrors useless at speed. That alone is enough to put me off riding a machine today, though back in the seventies when almost all large motorcycles vibrated badly, we tolerated it.

- The Norton is a sweet handling bike. My memory of the CB750 is that it was a like other Japanese bikes from back then, a bit of a heavy ill handling pig to ride on challenging roads.

If I had a good CB 750 in the shed today , it would mainly be something to look at once in awhile, not something that would get ridden much at all with the Norton sitting there ready to go.

Glen
 
worntorn said:
The collapse seems to have more to do with factors other than a straight bike to bike comparison.
Forty years later we can still compare the bikes easily and Norton comes out on top by a wide margin.
If I am going on a long ride through the mountains, or headed to California on the 101 or in a hurry on the I-5, do I want to take the CB 750 or the 850 Commando?

-Compared to the Honda, The Norton has something like 40% more torque on tap per pound of machine and rider at 70 MPH. This is really nice all of the time, but especially when carrying a passenger and luggage.

- The Norton is completely smooth at highway speeds. At 70-75 MPH , the bar end mirrors on my MK3 850 are as clear as the rearview mirror in a new car. Even when new, my CB750 produced a horrible tingling vibration at highway speeds. It buzzed me and made the mirrors useless at speed. That alone is enough to put me off riding a machine today, though back in the seventies when almost all large motorcycles vibrated badly, we tolerated it.

- The Norton is a sweet handling bike. My memory of the CB750 is that it was a like other Japanese bikes from back then, a bit of a heavy ill handling pig to ride on challenging roads.

If I had a good CB 750 in the shed today , it would mainly be something to look at once in awhile, not something that would get ridden much at all with the Norton sitting there ready to go.

Glen

Glen,

But the cost difference was what made the biggest difference. We make the assumption that the buyer understood the difference in power and handling. Not sure most people knew anything other than Honda's reputation and cost.

Then we could try and explain why people buy Harley's and that is another can of worms. The new Harley "Baggers" with the bags an inch from the ground and a 24 inch wheel on the front tell the story pretty well in my opinion. You never have to lean on a Harley...because you can't. Of course this is the other end of the spectrum...commanding an outrageous price for an inferior product...or at least a single purpose product.

Dennis
 
Ugh, I only wanted to know if Norton had started and test rode Commando before delivery, not get into the doo doo that shut down British cycle industry and others. Much as we all recoil at conspiracy theories, that's all there when ever ya dig deep enough on any world affairs. This is hardest to swallow blue or red pill Matrix stuff so may not want to know -as once you do => permanent depressive state with predicable bad future for us. Its was study of licensing, banking and Nationality ID that lead me to evil City of London and Vatican creeps but lead to reality that allows me to banks w/o SSN or tax number, hold primary care license as a non US person/citizen out side IRS and passport w/o any 'Govt' issued photo id signed my Hillary Clinton when she was US Sect. of State Department. There is no real US govt as Lincoln's War took down the republic govt union states under emergency war powers then Radical Republicans created a corporation called Washington District of Columbia then renamed the municipality > United States >, which is not same enitity as <Untied States of America>. Magic word games and spells put on us to confuse thinking and history for control and domination.

http://theforbiddenknowledge.com/manipulation/
(found near end of part 4)
As early as 1940 Harold Wilson was preaching a centralised Federal Europe and outlined a plan of infiltration of the Labour and Conservative parties to form a centre party of moderates which could brand any genuine opposition as extremists. The plan also included the destruction of the British manufacturing industries. Between 1964 and 1975, Wilson (Labour) was Prime Minister, except when he was replaced in 1970-74 by his Bilderberg colleague Edward Heath (Conservative). The two of them ran down British industry, limited MI5 investigational powers and moved towards European Union. Wilson was aided by Lord Victor Rothschild as the head of his Central Policy Review Staff, and his Chancellor Denis Healey (Bilderberger, TC, RIIA).
 
If it's any consolation, the same pollies that hobot mentioned were also involved in the cutting off at the knees of the British aircraft industry, shipbuilding in the UK, and the car industry. Of course there are a multitude of reasons for all of them, union unrest, clapped out machinery (some) bad management, Britain being broke etc etc. The fact is that there were some political individuals who presided over the whole sorry debacle and either allowed it to happen, or actually helped it to happen. All for their pathetic political ambition or ideals. They have all retired on a fantastic pension, many have been knighted or elevated to the Lords with little or no blame attached to them. The only good thing is that most of them have shuffled off this mortal coil by now (i.e. they've carked it).
Happy days
cheers
wakeup
 
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