What is the cause of hands off,headshake

Status
Not open for further replies.
A good steering damper will fix that, I just put one on my Triumph Thruxton and what a diffrents it made to the bike, it just stablizes the whole bike whether riding on a straight road or pushing it through tight corners so after a few months with the steering damper I am going to invest in one for my Featherbed/Commando although its very stable now, I think it will make it even better.

Ashley
 
Coming home from Winthrop in June I moved my feet to the rear footpegs as I often do on the Vincent when the miles get long. This tilts the body forward, but obviously also moves some weight rearward, so I'm not sure how it changes the weight loading numbers front and rear.
With the Commando I noticed that it immediately starts to do a fairly gentle but nonetheless annoying headshake or weave. This is with both hands on the bars of course, I'm not one for no-handing it. Return the feet to the proper position and everything goes smooth and straight again.

Made me wonder if riders with rearsets fitted to their Commandos experience the same thing to some degree?

Glen
 
I had the same problem with a worn but usable front tyre [ the one handed shake ]. At our last rally when we were stooging around Blenheim, I noticed the problem. It did not occur above 30 mph [ the handling was safe as sopund on the open road ]/. I spoke to one of the better riders in our club and he said his bike did the same. I use 410x19 TT100's

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR BIKE.

It doesn't hurt to check it out though. And don't be upset if you find nothing wrong.

Dereck
 
Woretorn
When I put put my rearsets on then progressively put lower handlebars on, till now a set of laverda adjustables, as I went lower and forward the head shake appeared and increased.
Just to let you know my experience.
Peter
 
ashman said:
A good steering damper will fix that, I just put one on my Triumph Thruxton and what a diffrents it made to the bike, it just stablizes the whole bike whether riding on a straight road or pushing it through tight corners so after a few months with the steering damper I am going to invest in one for my Featherbed/Commando although its very stable now, I think it will make it even better.

Ashley
I have a damper and it helps , but I think its a Band-Aid. There should be an engineered answer.
 
Forgot to mention. The problem went away when a new tyre was fitted on the front. The old one went on the rear.

Dereck
 
Of the bikes I have 2 of them have this condition, My 75 MK III does and my 2005 Triumph Thruxton also. But both my Buells are rock steady and my 72 Norton also. I have tried a few things and it seems those bikes just seem stuck with this condition. A bit surprised to hear so many others have this problem too, there must be something wrong in my opinion as other bikes don't show any signs of it. :roll:
 
Every cycle and its size pilot and cargo needs experimentation to find what is optimal. Was speaking with owner of an American Commando evolution, a rubber mounted Porsche Vtwin HD who said it was work to ride it and wiggled if too relaxed till worn out factory rear in 2000 miles and tried a wider tire that make it a nice easy handler w/o fork twitters back. Its illegal to remove both hands in traffic but its fun to use body English to steer the easy stuff or adjust garments. It also good way to monitor state of tires or their pressure sensing how decays or improves in cycles of changing this or that till sinks in what ya like or not. I test my cycle by hands off slack at bars to send a good shudder down the frame to see how well it self corrects or not, most cycle take more than one oscillation, linked Peel snapped back in half cycle to neutral again. Those jiggles so thoughtlessly easy dampened by hands on while ridding sane thrills can show up again if pressing luck much above that. Damper may stop this in sane ridding thrills but the cause of the oscillation is still working and can reappear at rates to much to recover from. Dampers are a steering drag to just putter around hands on and so would moderns on fat tires if same nice stable trail of Commando.

We had a vintage film showing various cycles could all be induced to wiggle wobble in straight lines depending on how the pilot was positioned or cycle cargo loaded. Solution was shifting till bike self corrected quickly.
 
As to weather rearsets amplify this I can only say that my current 850 came with stock bars & pegs and had the shake, it was still the same with rearsets & drop bars. Then I replaced the steering head bearings, installed a set of clipp ons, rebuilt both hubs & had Buchanans lace up a set on alloy WM3 x 19 rims with new Avon's. At that point I could take my hands off with very little to no head shake. About a year ago I replaced the rear tire & it now seems to shake a bit more with my hands off. Might be rear wheel alignment as I wasn't as anal about it last time it was off but who knows. I don't get the urge to to it much on the Norton, I think the long wheel base & rearsets don't inspire it but did it constantly on my V-50 Monza Guzzi which also had rearsets & clipp ons but it was short, extremely nimble & steady as a rock. I could let my hands off at speed and use the rear brake to slowly come to a stop at red lights then just drop my feet. Nortons a different animal. I love it for all its quirks. I wonder if a mid 70's Ducati SS gets the shakes with no hands?? My 2007 Monster doesn't but that's again a "modern" bike.
 
Get rid of the stock head steady. (It is not OK to live with this problem as it can kill you or at least make you change your underwear.) A steering damper is only a band-aid.
 
I have cured my Commando of two annoying "hands off" handling anomalies - the left lean tendency and the 30 mph head shake. Careful rear wheel alignment and properly centered front wheel (lacing) solved the left lean. Replacing the front tyre and balancing the wheel solved the head shake.

As has been noted, the stock head steady can contribute to the head shake, but for me it was a bad tyre.
 
I never have noticed the issue so I tried to duplicate it with no success. The bike does tend very slightly to the left when I let go of it and always has even after tire changes and alignment checks.
 
batrider said:
Get rid of the stock head steady. (It is not OK to live with this problem as it can kill you or at least make you change your underwear.) A steering damper is only a band-aid.
I have a stock head steady. My bike does not drift to the left. It does do the 'boog-a-loo' at 30ish with hands off but with a light touch on the bars it's fine and true. I suppose one could see just how far they dare take the continuing oscillations before they get thrown off or their bike starts to shed parts but with a hand on the bar, it stops the dance. You are the rider, the rider is part of the machine. It's not a car. In this case, you are the steering damper and its not hard work to stop that little shake. Kill you? Really? I think not.
 
i took my hands off a bike i was riding recently, slow speed just to put a glove back on, didn't think anything of it,

all of a sudden, and i mean waaaay fast, the front end started up a scary fast increasing jiggling..

never experienced that before and didn't even know it could come on like that real fast in that situation,
 
Yoose guys getting lesions that shocked me too back in 1999 on. I Always Akready Know what speed I better be above for the safe stable coast down time diddling with insects or skull drew rag working over eyes. If for some reason you had to remove a plastic bag thrown on you in dense traffic then we might not of heard from you again because you thought by behaving sane legally comfy meant you have enough awareness of how close to out of control mc always are and innately avoid those surprises. I have pressed every cycle I have been on into various over doing it upsets - on my terms - to know how little I am able to recovery surprises and dam well better stay below them unless in death wish thrill state. Do not kid yourselves every little annoyance one feels may easy be covered up by pilot or device dampening but still operating to suddenly spike up above dampening of pilot or device but at faster-harsher states - best wishes recovering to tell your tale. There are simple ways to totally eliminate any silliness in an isolastic Command rather beyond anything else I on purpose or accidentally got terrifying upset with. A complicating factor is more than one thing at once can be doing the same upseting a Commando so nothing but trial -error with tedious attention to everything or may miss what is doing what in combo with other things - ugh. i am done with handling exploration, only seek power excess to take more advantage of my immaturity. I have confirmed opinion that as good as it is to seek best handling Commando it will still be most surprise onset killer ever conceived so is bottom of the corner cripple to me and if you do not have same firm awareness- keep on in denial - till lurking proof pounces.
 
There are Wikipedia articles on Casters and Speed Wobble which are helpful. Wobbles are an inherent feature of casters which affect aircraft landing gear and shopping carts as well as motorbikes. As you can imagine, aircraft designers have directed their attention to the problem. The tendency of casters to wobble cannot be eliminated, but can be reduced by increasing front tire inflation, increasing chassis stiffness, increasing frame mass around the steering head and decreasing sideslip stiffness of the front tire.

How does this apply to our Nortons? Front tire pressure should be kept at the upper range for that tire. Replace the head steady.... it decreases chassis stiffness. Keep the gas tank full to maximise steering head mass. Different tires may have different "sideslip stiffness", but randomly changing tire brands doesn't seem to be practical. If all else fails, install a steering damper.

I have some non-scientific stuff to add. Part of the wobble problem is the antiquated design of the Norton. Ball bearings are not suitable for steering head bearings. Even Triumph and BSA used tapered roller bearings. My "modern" 1982 metric crotch rocket developed a speed wobble due to lose steering head bearings. After adjustment, the sped wobble disappeared. Steering head bearings need to be adjustable, both to reduce speed wobble and to prevent Brinelling of the bearing race. The tapered roller bearings on the crotch rocket were Brinelled by driving the bike with improper clearance and had to be replaced.

Another Norton design defect is the rubber head steady. Both to improve handling and reduce head wobble, it has to go! (see previous thread on home-made puck headsteady).

And we need to fix the built-in offset of the front wheel on disc brake Nortons. The tendency of Nortons to pull to the left is because of this offset. No sensible engineer would design a caster with the contact patch offset from the steering axis. It gives two speeds at which to start a speed wobble instead of one. It also makes it impossible to align the front and back wheels with the steering head... they are not in the same plane.

Take your front fender off and unplug the rubber bung from of the top of the steering stem. Insert a suitable rod down the steering stem to make sure it is aligned with the centre of the tread on the front tire. if not, re-lace the wheel to true the rim.

Once I got rid of the rim offset, my Commando lost the tendency to pull left. With the puck-type head steady, head wobble is minimal. I can sit up and adjust my gloves without a tank-slapper. I can coast hands-off long enough to determine how to fine-tune my wheel alignment without significant wobble.

Manxman
 
bit more (no modern bikes do it)
Costa said his speed was about 25-30 mph when, "The whole bike started shaking. I had no idea why the bike was vibrating like that, and it wasn't a little vibrating. I never felt anything like that in my life."
Read more: http://www.kpho.com/story/14896060/some ... z3i8EdRibI

https://www.google.ca/search?q=harley+w ... ive5aZg5AB
84ok said:
jimbo said:
Biscuit said:
.........so I have quit obsessing over it. I asked myself the very logical question "Just when is it necessary to ride 'hands off' anyway?".

I agree, however I think its a indication that something is wrong. No modern bikes do it.

http://www.hdforums.com/forum/new-rushm ... shake.html
 
The newer HD version of death shake only seems to occur on un-tamed rubber mounted models for which exist extra back up rod links - located down low at rear, away from rubber mount/isolastic that allows them to tease with BMWs.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf2Pptpbnp0[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PThPfRUGxk4[/video]

What causes this... who knows till it hits and survive to try something different
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmHU-gtlOKo[/video]
 
About once twice to 3x an outing this happens to me to scream at the onset or its over so fast settled again no reaction is appropriate, but sometimes cuss soon after at the stupid pilot risking all again. I got kicked out of a school for learning to over come modern fatso corner cripple but must go in knowing you will crash if not leaping off the right phase of the whip lash or bad juju. No cycles or pilots injured in this demo that could just as well be a Commando in sweeper that turns lumpy or changes direction of gusts or both. This might make a fun game at rallys to see who could ride Commando down slowest hands off.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzB6KSlD6ec[/video]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top