What is it?

storm42 · Oct 11, 2021

I went to the classic bike show on Saturday and wandered into the auction room where i saw this. Anybody know what it is?

robs ss · Oct 11, 2021

I saw that somewhere that it is meant to be a "genuine Norton prototype" complete with gearbox fitted back-to-front.
Me?... Naahhh!!

APRRSV · Oct 11, 2021

Is it a Norton with a blower on it?

Ed

gortnipper · Oct 11, 2021

Cosworth prototype

"P89" – The Mysterious Norton Cosworth Experimental Prototype

The motorcycle you see here is a prototype that was never meant to be seen outside the Norton Villiers Triumph engineering department, however unlike many

silodrome.com

Mart UK · Oct 11, 2021

Sold for £6,900.

seattle##gs · Oct 12, 2021

I wish they had gone this route rather than spending all their money on the rotary.

Fast Eddie · Oct 12, 2021

seattle##gs said:
I wish they had gone this route rather than spending all their money on the rotary.

I agree. I know PW was not a fan of the engine for race use, but it would have been easy to punch it out to 900cc ish.

A modern 900cc, 8 valve, isolastic mounted twin, in the 1970s… that wudda been awesome !

storm42 · Oct 12, 2021

Found the info on Bonhams site.

Bonhams Cars : c.1974 NVT 'Cosworth' Experimental Prototype Frame no. none Engine no. none

The urgent need to replace its ageing Commando twin with something more modern for both road and track prompted NVT to commission a new engine design from Cosworth Engineering, applicable to both a production roadster and a race-bike. First shown in 1975, the Challenge water-cooled unitary...

www.bonhams.com

storm42 · Oct 12, 2021

And here is another piece of Nortons history.

Bonhams Cars : A c.1974 NVT 'Cosworth' Prototype Engine

The experimental engine offered here appears to be a test-bed for Cosworth's DOHC four-valves-per-cylinder technology applied to a water-cooled twin-cylinder engine with separate gearbox; as such, it might have been conceived as an update for the Commando engine that would have been cheaper than...

www.bonhams.com

storm42 · Oct 12, 2021

Bonhams Cars : A set of ex-Peter Williams John Player Norton racing leathers ((3))

made by Bates of California, race-worn and distressed, together with a Bell helmet and John Player Norton T-shirt both signed by Williams, and two magazine cover photographs of Williams believed to be wearing the same leathers, which also display stitching marks thought to have been for the...

www.bonhams.com

SteveA · Oct 12, 2021

There appears to be no documentary evidence offered to link this with the Norton factory or Cosworth. Simply anecdotal reference to Bob Joiner and Cyril Chell! and a Liquidation sale.

No one else has ever mentioned such a thing existed.

And indeed, why would an abortion like this be needed?

Cosworth's main contribution will have been the baseline design of the head, piston, cam design from the 3 litre DFV, and that will have been demonstrable by other means. This is proving nothing useful.

Methinks this is scrap metal from another source!

But....for £7K you could not build a decent Commando motor....so I hope someone thinks they got good value!

SteveA · Oct 12, 2021

seattle##gs said:
I wish they had gone this route rather than spending all their money on the rotary.

Sort of muddled up statement there. This predates the Rotary considerably. And was the work of, in reality, a different company!

And the Rotary was in fact a much more successful project, leading to very successful race bikes and road bikes that customers bought and survive today.

The fact that neither you nor I would buy a Rotary is irrelevant to the project viability. We weren't the target market.

cliffa · Oct 12, 2021

We discussed it on another thread a few weeks ago and the general consensus was that it's a home made bike ( others were not so kind)

NORTON-COSWORTH 750CC EXPERIMENTAL MOTORCYCLE

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26978/preview_lot/5484999/?category=list&length=12&page=2

www.accessnorton.com

It would be great to know the full story though.

Danno · Oct 12, 2021

seattle##gs said:
I wish they had gone this route rather than spending all their money on the rotary.

The rotary was a BSA project NVT inherited when Triumph was merged in. Much development already completed and military contracts for engines meant extra income, so it probably wasn't a loser. But I'm with you on the ill-fated Cosworth project. The Challenge was later shown to be a viable racer, but it never made it to production.

grandpaul · Oct 12, 2021

This is one of those bikes that makes me want to see all the relevant people from "back in the day" gather around the bike, and nobody leaves until the facts are determined. Then put the bloody thing to bed with rampant speculation EVERY TIME it's re-posted several thousand times...

Fast Eddie · Oct 12, 2021

I had always assumed, but have no evidence at all, that the Triumph Phoenix mock up of ‘82 was a revamped Challenge motor.

Does anyone know if this is right or wrong ?

Madnorton · Oct 12, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
I agree. I know PW was not a fan of the engine for race use, but it would have been easy to punch it out to 900cc ish.

A modern 900cc, 8 valve, isolastic mounted twin, in the 1970s… that wudda been awesome !

But would have needed gear driven cams. It was not one of Cosworths finest products.

Madnorton · Oct 12, 2021

Having seen the Cosworth crank it seems that a lot testing was done as it looks like Swiss cheese.

cliffa · Oct 12, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
I had always assumed, but have no evidence at all, that the Triumph Phoenix mock up of ‘82 was a revamped Challenge motor.

Does anyone know if this is right or wrong ?

I thought it was developed by Weslake? Need to do some digging...

Danno · Oct 13, 2021

Madnorton said:
Having seen the Cosworth crank it seems that a lot testing was done as it looks like Swiss cheese.

Is that the quill shaft/balancer they had so much early trouble with?

What is it?

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