What do I have?

feralcat · Aug 23, 2010

I recently became involved in the restoration of an older Norton. We are trying to determine exactly what we have. The engine # is 20M3S131715, which would appear to indicate a 1969 Commando with camshaft points, if I'm reading things correctly. However, the bike has the cylinders vertical like an Atlas, is a single carb, and the ignition is what appears to be a magneto located behind the cylinder block on top of the motor case. Am I interpreting the engine # wrong or do I have a possibly "altered" case #? Any thoughts, comments, or wiggy words of wisdom would be appreciated
-feralcat

BillT · Aug 23, 2010

Is it possible the bike has had the left-hand side of the crank case replaced? Is there a points cover on the timing cover, or a tach drive? Are there coils?

Any information on the frame? Is it a Commando frame, featherbed (Atlas), or perhaps a Matchless (N15) frame?

Anglophile · Aug 23, 2010

RIght, if the cylinders are vertical the frame doesn't sound right (unless you have some crazy long forks on 'er! :mrgreen: ) A pic is worth a thousand words...

Tintin · Aug 23, 2010

feralcat said:
I recently became involved in the restoration of an older Norton. We are trying to determine exactly what we have. The engine # is 20M3S131715, which would appear to indicate a 1969 Commando with camshaft points, if I'm reading things correctly. However, the bike has the cylinders vertical like an Atlas, is a single carb, and the ignition is what appears to be a magneto located behind the cylinder block on top of the motor case.

My guess is you have a Dominator which suffered from an engine failure and had it replaced with a Commando - if you're really lucky it might be a Commando-in-Featherbed. If it's another kind of frame than the amount of luck probably depends on your own personal taste... :wink:

Have a look at the frame whether you find a number there: If it is a Featherbed it will be on the left hand side, on the s/arm gusset just above the pivot point with at least six digits in a vertical line. The first two digits define the original model, e.g. an Atlas will have the model code "20" in horizontal digits and then a six digit no below.

Tim

prmurat · Aug 23, 2010

Will you be lucky and have a P11???
Philippe

feralcat · Aug 24, 2010

Additional information on this bike: The frame has the numbers 131715 top to bottom , stamped into the left side of the steering neck. No numbers on frame above s/a gusset. There is no points cover or cover of any kind on the timing cover. Ignition is definitely a magneto. No coils. No tach drive. (Also no long forks.)
I took some pictures today and as soon as I can figure out how to get them from my phone to this forum I will do so. Meanwhile, I appreciate the help so far!
-feralcat

Tintin · Aug 25, 2010

feralcat said:
Additional information on this bike: The frame has the numbers 131715 top to bottom ,

If the frame is Norton 13 might indicate a Model 50 but it would be two digits too short and....

stamped into the left side of the steering neck.

...this sounds wrong. I have a 1968 frame which has the no. in that location and starts with 128 but was told by AN that the VIN plate came shortly after this date. The 131715 would designate a 1969 Commando as you said but then the engine cradle and frame would need to be heavily modified for an erect engine...

No numbers on frame above s/a gusset.

Most likely no featherbed then or somebody fooled around with the nos., something like giving a Featherbed the identity of a 1969 Commando. That would be my guess actually - if the frame is Norton at all. A Featherbed is pretty easily identified by it characteristic frame loops: http://www.oldbritts.com/13_067201.html This is a wideline, if the rear triangle is a bent piece of tube on both sides it's a slimline.

There is no points cover or cover of any kind on the timing cover.

Sounds like the engine is pretty mixed up too although the frame no. matches the LH engine case no obviously. Pics would help but from your description I'd say you have a pretty stirred up Bitsa.... are you absolutley sure about the engine being vertical and the S in the engine number?

Tim

feralcat · Aug 25, 2010

Tim, 'preciate the info.
From pictures, definitely no featherbed. One of my customers looked at it today and said he thought it might be a P11 with possibly an older engine in it.
He also said the Norton crest on the cam case cover was an older generation version. Absolutely sure about both vertical cylinders and 'S' in engine #. Also, the rear loop on the frame, over the rear wheel, is a separate part bolted on, don't know if that means anything. Got pictures from phone to my computer; as soon as my techno-dinosaur self can figure out how to post then I will do so.
feralcat

feralcat · Aug 26, 2010

More pertinent info: the engine cradle is a single loop, from recently viewed images it does not appear to be a p11. Motor looks kind of like Dominator, with no points cover or tach drive on outer cover

grandpaul · Aug 26, 2010

Late style timing cover can be fitted to earlier engines, so as it is likely a "bitsa" in several other ways, that just adds one more possibility.

Frame stamping and crankcase stamping will only illucidate the heritage of the two main bits.

britbike220 · Aug 26, 2010

wouldn't it be much easier to identify with a picture or two ?

feralcat · Aug 31, 2010

Update on project whatisit?
After a lot of internet searching and info from numerous sources (thanks, everyone) we believe that we have an older Dominator, probably late 50's as the frame, rear hub, oil bag, as well as several other bits, are exact matches to Dominator pics of this vintage. I can only assume that at some point in its life, someone "customized" the numbers to fit existing paperwork or similar.
feralcat