wet sump solution 2

If you shut the oil off from the oil tank and the bike sits for a while the oil that sits after the ball valve or any other anti sump valve used flows past the oil pump and into your crank case leaving a bit of a airlock in the oil line then once you turn the valve on could that cause that air lock to be still there, remember when you rebuild a Norton motor you have to reprime the oil pump to get rid of any airlock, could that be the same when using a shut off anti wet sump valve.
I have forgotten to check my oil tank before kicking it after sitting for a few weeks, if the motor has wet sump it will be harder to kick over than normal, but my bike normally starts first kick and then if it fires up the pump don't take long to pump the access oil from the crank back to the oil tank, some worry about blowing the crank seal on the primary side, one of the reasons I put a little smear of JB weld on the outside of that seal just in case I do forget to check the oil level in the tank and that seal won't blow, but as Jim said that seal could also fold out, but I only forgot to check once or twice before starting, there be more chances the oil will come out of the lower bolt threads that hold the inner primary case on if some don't seal the threads on them bolts.
I just go the way I done in the 50 years of owning my Norton, check the oil level in the tank, if its low you know the oil be in the bottom end so a quick undo the drain plug and drain the access oil out so simple than worrying about turning on a valve or if a anti wet sump valve fails, is it worth the ricks, just check your oil level before starting.

Ashley
 
Whats wrong with just dropping the sump if the level has reduced in the tank? Takes no more than 10 minutes to sort, i just do it as part of my pre ride checks.
 
Ash, if you have a ball valve or Holland anti wet sump valve or similar, the oil will stay in the line between the valve and the pump because there is no way for air to get in the line to displace the oil. Unless there is a leak in the line, it will stay full of oil for ever. On assembly the line should be filled with oil to help the pump prime itself. Then you don't have to worry about wet sumping any more. Start and ride, no checking oil level or draining the sump, or blowing oil seals. Graham
 
Not sure how you reckon Feked are not being responsive...seems they have worked a lot of contact back and forth with you and habe agreed to send a replacememt unit. 9+ days to ship from UK is not out of bounds these days, esp if they are using a lower price point shipping option for a warranty replacement. Poor response on subsequent communications may be due to any number of issues (perhaps the individuals is on summer va-ka etc). Cut them some slack.

Seems like you ball valve may just need a little deburring or shaping of the seal area to get it fully closing.
Tornado

To be clear, I think the Feked design is good. The ball valve tap they use is a standard item, and they should be able to rely on it being manufactured correctly. I think it's highly likely that the manufacturing defect in the unit I got is extremely rare.

My concern with Feked is how they communicated with me about this problem/defect in the part they sourced (which I found particulalry troubling in light of the fact that I went out of my way to provide them with details that they could forward to the supplier and/or manufacturer).

I did not say it's taken 9 days to ship something from the UK. What I said in my post was that, after several emails in which they (reasonably) suggested 1) that I had simply failed to fully close the handle and 2) that maybe some debris had gotten into the unit and was blocking the ball from closing all the way - what I said in my post was that after those emails, they said they "would post (aka ship) a new ball valve (tap) unit. That was last Friday. It's now Wednesday, and despite sending them follow up emails, they've gone radio silent and I've received no word from them (or royalmail.com) when this will ship. ... It is now 9 days since I first emailed them to notify them of this product failure, and I have no word of when the promised replacement unit will ship." I omitted the details of the email exchange for brevity, but here is the sequence of emails with Feked that, in my opinion, show they were not responsive - at least to a level that I think would have been appropriate. Others may find Feked's comunicatioins sufficiently responsive.

These are all listed here in UK time. I often emailed at night where I am so they’d get them early in their day.

6/15 Monday 11 pm UK time - ME: I notified with pictures that it was dripping oil when handle was as far shut as it would go.

6/ 16 Tues 6 am UK time - FEKED: Feked suggested operator error by me not turning the handle all the way to 90 degrees “try turning the tap OFF. It’s not in the fully closed position.”

6/16 - 3 pm UK time - ME: I explained the tap would not physically go farther than 70 degrees. “This is not an operator error.” And 4 minutes later I added that the unit was also leaking oil, which it was.

6/16 - 10 pm UK - ME: I sent them a short video showing that the handle would not go to 90 degrees. "The tap handle only going to 70 degrees is how it came out of the box.”

6/17 Wed - 8:40 pm UK - FEKED: They suggest inspecting for debris in the tap and bench testing the handle's range of movement. “sometimes they are a little stiff when new.”

6/17 10 am - ME: I explained it was not a little stiff that it “absolutely does not move beyond the approximately 70 degrees” and that I would disassemble it to see if there was an obstruction.

6/17 11:15 am UK - ME: I reported that on disassembly the ball moved freely the entire 90 degree range and that “As I start to screw the end with the white plastic seat back on, the ball begins to snag - gets resistance before tap fully closes. And when that end is screwed all the way down (but not wrenched tight), the valve stops closing.” I also let them know that the red sealant on the threads was not all the way around, which explained why it also was leaking.

6/18 Thurs - 2:30 am UK - and again at 12:20 pm UK - ME: I asked them to do a quick zoom video call so they could see for themselves, and sent a zoom link for that.

6/19 Friday - 1 pm UK - ME: after two days of no response, I emailed “Hullo??”

6/19 Friday - 2:35 pm UK - FEKED (from “sales”): “we are not able to zoom. We will post you out another tap body …”

6/19 - 2:45 UK - ME: I thanked them

6/19 - 3:25 am UK - ME: Going out of my way to educate them so they can take it up with their supplier, I sent a link to a video showing how the handle stops moving the full 90 degrees as you tighten (hand tight) the end with the nylon seat onto the rest of the unit. No Reply

6/22 Monday - 10:14 am UK - ME: I asked if I would receive an email from royalmail.com when they post it. (When they shipped the original, I got emails from royalmail.com updating me on the shipping.) No reply

6/23 Tuesday - 12:30 pm UK - ME: I wrote “Sorry to bug you, but any word on when the tap body will be posted? Thank you.” No Reply

6/24 Wednesday 6:40 am UK - ME: (This was now five days after they said they would post a replacement with no further communication from them) I wrote “??? Hullo??

6/24 8:15 am UK - I posted my experience to this forum.

6/24 6:40 pm UK - ROYALMAIL.COM: I received an email from Royalmail.com that they received a parcel from Feked. But still nothing from Feked since the 19th.

Folks can have their own opinion about whether that shows sufficient responsiveness to a customer who got a defective unit.

With respect to "deburring" the nylon seal, if you had this in your hand, I think you'd see that's not realistic. First because the nylon surface is smoooooooth and the picture shows there's no "burr" to deburr - and also because trying to re-shape it would be a blind effort. You can't see where the ball is hitting the nylon before it fully closes because that only happens when the unit is assembled. So you would have no way of seeing where or how much material to remove.
 
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Tornado

To be clear, I think the Feked design is good. The ball valve tap they use is a standard item, and they should be able to rely on it being manufactured correctly. I think it's highly likely that the manufacturing defect in the unit I got is extremely rare.

My concern with Feked is how they communicated with me about this problem/defect in the part they sourced (which I found particulalry troubling in light of the fact that I went out of my way to provide them with details that they could forward to the supplier and/or manufacturer).

I did not say it's taken 9 days to ship something from the UK. What I said in my post was that, after several emails in which they (reasonably) suggested 1) that I had simply failed to fully close the handle and 2) that maybe some debris had gotten into the unit and was blocking the ball from closing all the way - what I said in my post was that after those emails, they said they "would post (aka ship) a new ball valve (tap) unit. That was last Friday. It's now Wednesday, and despite sending them follow up emails, they've gone radio silent and I've received no word from them (or royalmail.com) when this will ship. ... It is now 9 days since I first emailed them to notify them of this product failure, and I have no word of when the promised replacement unit will ship." I omitted the details of the email exchange for brevity, but here is the sequence of emails with Feked that, in my opinion, show they were not responsive - at least to a level that I think would have been appropriate. Others may find Feked's comunicatioins sufficiently responsive.

These are all listed here in UK time. I often emailed at night where I am so they’d get them early in their day.

6/15 Monday 11 pm UK time - ME: I notified with pictures that it was dripping oil when handle was as far shut as it would go.

6/ 16 Tues 6 am UK time - FEKED: Feked suggested operator error by me not turning the handle all the way to 90 degrees “try turning the tap OFF. It’s not in the fully closed position.”

6/16 - 3 pm UK time - ME: I explained the tap would not physically go farther than 70 degrees. “This is not an operator error.” And 4 minutes later I added that the unit was also leaking oil, which it was.

6/16 - 10 pm UK - ME: I sent them a short video showing that the handle would not go to 90 degrees. "The tap handle only going to 70 degrees is how it came out of the box.”

6/17 Wed - 8:40 pm UK - FEKED: They suggest inspecting for debris in the tap and bench testing the handle's range of movement. “sometimes they are a little stiff when new.”

6/17 10 am - ME: I explained it was not a little stiff that it “absolutely does not move beyond the approximately 70 degrees” and that I would disassemble it to see if there was an obstruction.

6/17 11:15 am UK - ME: I reported that on disassembly the ball moved freely the entire 90 degree range and that “As I start to screw the end with the white plastic seat back on, the ball begins to snag - gets resistance before tap fully closes. And when that end is screwed all the way down (but not wrenched tight), the valve stops closing.” I also let them know that the red sealant on the threads was not all the way around, which explained why it also was leaking.

6/18 Thurs - 2:30 am UK - and again at 12:20 pm UK - ME: I asked them to do a quick zoom video call so they could see for themselves, and sent a zoom link for that.

6/19 Friday - 1 pm UK - ME: after two days of no response, I emailed “Hullo??”

6/19 Friday - 2:35 pm UK - FEKED (from “sales”): “we are not able to zoom. We will post you out another tap body …”

6/19 - 2:45 UK - ME: I thanked them

6/19 - 3:25 am UK - ME: Going out of my way to educate them so they can take it up with their supplier, I sent a link to a video showing how the handle stops moving the full 90 degrees as you tighten (hand tight) the end with the nylon seat onto the rest of the unit. No Reply

6/22 Monday - 10:14 am UK - ME: I asked if I would receive an email from royalmail.com when they post it. (When they shipped the original, I got emails from royalmail.com updating me on the shipping.) No reply

6/23 Tuesday - 12:30 pm UK - ME: I wrote “Sorry to bug you, but any word on when the tap body will be posted? Thank you.” No Reply

6/24 Wednesday 6:40 am UK - ME: (This was now five days after they said they would post a replacement with no further communication from them) I wrote “??? Hullo??

6/24 8:15 am UK - I posted my experience to this forum.

6/24 6:40 pm UK - ROYALMAIL.COM: I received an email from Royalmail.com that they received a parcel from Feked. But still nothing from Feked since the 19th.

Folks can have their own opinion about whether that shows sufficient responsiveness to a customer who got a defective unit.

With respect to "deburring" the nylon seal, if you had this in your hand, I think you'd see that's not realistic. First because the nylon surface is smoooooooth and the picture shows there's no "burr" to deburr - and also because trying to re-shape it would be a blind effort. You can't see where the ball is hitting the nylon before it fully closes because that only happens when the unit is assembled. So you would have no way of seeing where or how much material to remove.
So they have sent the item and you have royal mail notification. Ok, that pretty good service in my book. You must have higher expectations then me.
 
So they have sent the item and you have royal mail notification. Ok, that pretty good service in my book. You must have higher expectations then me.
Yes, apparently I do expect more than you.

I expect better and quicker responses from a company that sells a defective product. Again, I don't fault them for relying on the unit they source - but on reflection, based on my experience they might want to manually operate each unit they receive to ensure that the handle (and ball) moves the full 90 degrees.

It is curious to me that it was only after I posted about it here that I got the email from Royalmail.com that they'd received a package from Feked. Make of that what you will.
 
Ash, if you have a ball valve or Holland anti wet sump valve or similar, the oil will stay in the line between the valve and the pump because there is no way for air to get in the line to displace the oil. Unless there is a leak in the line, it will stay full of oil for ever. On assembly the line should be filled with oil to help the pump prime itself. Then you don't have to worry about wet sumping any more. Start and ride, no checking oil level or draining the sump, or blowing oil seals. Graham
I am just old school biker I have no problems at all with wet sump or worrying about anti wet sump valves or devices, owning my Norton for 50 years I very rarely let it sit long enough to even start to wet sump this is the only time my Norton has sat for over 6 months from losing my right lower leg from a bike/car accident 6 months ago and in 50 years of ownership my Norton has only wet sump 3 x so no big deal for me.
How do you know the oil will stay there for ever past the anti wet sump valve as the oil line is a down hill run and gravity the oil will slowly drop down from the hose pass the valve, not saying it does but that's the way my brain work, I no need to fix a problem that don't worry me, my Norton has always been a everyday ride till 2013, riding it all the time it never wet sump so no problem at all even after 2013 when I brought a new Thruxton my Norton got taken out regularly and as I say this is the longest it has sat without being fired up as I no longer have a kicking leg to kick it over till I install that CWN ES kit, but learning to walk again is on my mind now with my new leg, to even think about riding.
So you don't even check your oil before a ride or check it between oil changes.
Everyone has an opinion on this subject, and what others decide to do run a anti wet sump device or choose not to have one on their bike, I choose not to run one myself as really after 50 years of ownership I know my own Norton and every Norton or bike for that matter is different, some wet sump more than others and some don't at all or take over 4 or 5 months if they sit for that long, where I live we ride all year round as our winters are the best times to be riding a British bike' living in the sub tropics our winters are very mild.

Ashley
 
Yes, apparently I do expect more than you.

I expect better and quicker responses from a company that sells a defective product. Again, I don't fault them for relying on the unit they source - but on reflection, based on my experience they might want to manually operate each unit they receive to ensure that the handle (and ball) moves the full 90 degrees.

It is curious to me that it was only after I posted about it here that I got the email from Royalmail.com that they'd received a package from Feked. Make of that what you will.

Here’s my summary:

They worked with you very diligently on the problem solving.

Concluded the part was faulty.

Sent you a new one FOC.


We can always argue that they should have been faster / more polite / more informative… but they have sorted you out and I think 99.9% of people on here would say that’s good.

IMHO it’s best to save the negative energy for the actual bad suppliers who sell substandard parts etc rather than expend it on those that have actually done the right thing albeit not quite as perfectly as you may have wished for.
 
Well, you kind of do have to remember, otherwise you can kick your heart out, it's not starting...hmmmm, did I screw up my starting proceedure? How long do I have to kick it now I forgot to turn it on? Ask me how I know.
Well the device paid for itself MANY times over then didn’t it ?!

You forgot to turn it on (as I’m certain I would) and had that been a plain manual valve you would now be looking at a very expensive engine rebuild !!
 
Here’s my summary:

They worked with you very diligently on the problem solving.

Concluded the part was faulty.

Sent you a new one FOC.


We can always argue that they should have been faster / more polite / more informative… but they have sorted you out and I think 99.9% of people on here would say that’s good.

IMHO it’s best to save the negative energy for the actual bad suppliers who sell substandard parts etc rather than expend it on those that have actually done the right thing albeit not quite as perfectly as you may have wished for.
Respectfully agree in part and disagree in part. Yes, they eventually sent a replacement valve (tap). But, for me, the lack of communication and responsiveness was sub-par. For me, customer and technical support are as important as the product itself - particularly when the product you get is defective.

I've just reported here what I experienced. That's not "negative energy." Folks can decide for themselves whether what I experienced would be fine with them or a concern for them. If folks carefully read the transcript of all the communications between me and Feked and feel that would not be a problem for them, that's great.

By comparison, when I had questions about the reed breather valve that Colorado Norton Works (CNW) sells, Matt there communicated quickly and thoroughly engaged with me about my questions. In the past he's done that even about handlebar grips. And the same was true with Mike at Alternative Motorcycle Repair (AMR), even eight years after I bought from him.
 
With a sump reed valve breather, rather than draining the sump, it's possible to remove the spark plugs and kick it over, Kenny states that 10 or so kicks should drain the sump back into the oil tank.
 
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