Vintage Motocross Premier Open Twin Commando

Is Mrs. Peel's first name Emma?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KnXBhCcigw&feature=fvw

OH MY vmx - I missed out on that b/w view of my icon fetish to ride. Yum, thanks. Alas that is THE Mrs. Emma Peel, nothing can compare to me, so only a 'Ms Peel' in my real life. Loving to lean into the curves.




Knowing what I now know to work up a special I'd not buy a complete bike or even 1 mostly in boxes as most is unneeded or in no condition to race on. I'd piece one together frame up as most of Cdo 750's can be swapped about.

First thing I'd do is buy Jim Scmidts Norton Race Notes for ~$25 for whole scope on whats involved in preps to go faster longer between let downs.
http://users.gotsky.com/jimschmidt/jsmo ... oducts.asp

Thanks I'll get that book. Yeah, that's my favorite episode,because Emma is in a Robin Hannah outfit. I meant to say a Robin Hood outfit. Robin Hannah #960,

vmxhannah960 said:

Hi Dave, Ididn't know you were into Nortons. Could someone explain linkages to me? The ones you said would tame the handling of a Rubber mounted Commando???

Click to expand...

Bultacos and Nortons. I'll never learn to shift on the left!

IMO, there is little doubt that the Norton is the best engine of the British twins. Certainly the best cylinder head. I'd be concerned, however, about the relative fragility of the Norton's tramsmission. Main and lay shafts sometimes snap like carrots - especially if you happen to catch some solid traction. I come off a jump unless the rear wheel had a really good cush hub, with lots of travel/cush.

Alrightly another man after my kind of gal image. Robin Hannah outfit, ok your addict. M-Appeal was a slang term for sexy back then, M = male. She got mine, 12 years too soon : ( I've done 59 orbits this month.

Plenty people raced a long time on basic factory gearbox, but its is Brit Iron golden age stuff so what ya expect if our hobby horses with racing loaded piled on.
BUT that is one thing Ms Peel rod links hepled preserve, doing corners so fast hardly need to strain to max to stay ahead of race packs, squid squadrons and lone maniacs.

Vmx I am working on about bullet proof isolastic Commando only becasue I found full links made it by far the best cornering handling tool I've tried. Otherwise no way to take on likes of Ducati 1100's or BMW SR1000's with their super acceleration in straights over 160 mph. 750 modified Combat power and rods prevented any neck and neck contests till I was caught up with 1/4 mile later in opens going over 130 and I'd slow up for blind crests or turns I'd had bad surprises in. Last big expense on super charged 920 water injected engine is $4000 TTINdustries beefed up gearbox. But even w/o that I expect either tire or clutch spin to protect transmission on narrow steer tires. There is a thing called pilot control ya know and Peel should not need to blow up AMC box just to out run ordinary world class sport bikes, only to set new records in close technical tracks where even F1 cars and GP bikes can't reach 150 mph.

I estimate about $4000+ for race level engine using mostly factory major components with after market crank and valve train, $2000 for frame and shocks and forks modified, $1000 for wheels brakes tires, $6-700 for gear box.
So easy $10,000 to go Commando racing 'reliably' competitively.
To build top world class version throw in another 15 grand > $25-30,000.
Losing mass costs ya know and costs more and more the less there is to lose.

All's I can tell ya is there are a few scenes that replay in my mind over over on max G's in turns, and it ain't no 900 ninja skipping around head instructor like a parking lot cone, foot on axle as peg folded up to pinch it out, him trying to show me- THE Gravel rider where the best place to make an apex is... then having to wait for him a full shift behind to show me some more hehe.
NO Sir freaking corner cripples.

Its Ms Peel over powering rear to get full sideways to turns to slow w/o brakes and recover that energy in hi side flings to land pointing where I want it then hook up max power snap on smashed down rear patch as tire rebounda and frame single unwind sling shots spike of acceleration just where traction is the least,

or hitting THE Gravel and turns so fast w/o much lean the tires climb berms like a belt drive on crowned pulley face, in controlled accelerating ongoing crash down creating over steer that climbs up the inside of berm slopes not slung wide like a lazy dasy traction and time wasting flat tracker that can hardly keep their bikes up w/o being a stool with 3 legs down, pashaw! So secure predicable handling just unseen hazards slow me down for next turn or hazard dodge.

Maybe can find a decent racer that just needs the isolastic chassis and forks stabilized.

ARHMA had off road event Oct 22-24 in our Madison [Boogger] County but missed it d/t a woodstock like event and began to rain and get cold after an all nighter party.

http://www.ahrma.org/Z-2010/Nationals/C ... review.pdf

Ms Peel plays rather harder than these guys on real hard base Gravel with trees and ditches next to road edge drop offs. That much real sod/dirt and wide opens oh my.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UtlgbgteEk[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45T-pQsHhqc&feature=related[/video]

Compare scenery passing me on SV650 with soft non DOT race tires taking care not to risk a crash just testing camera on face shield. Ms Peel would be 10-25 mph faster where I look at speedo, first time 45 mph, 2nd at 70 mph. Notice how slow I go on the grass, I know better on moderns so rare shot of doing that
on SV but this is were I out accelerate and zig zag freaked out deer on Ms Peel.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx0oUUY--iI[/video]

I ran a stock frame BITD, and that's why we ended up with the Dallas Baker. One to many rough scrambles.

I've run past Ms Peel hard over roots and rocks and mostly through gofer hole and very unforgiving Hard Pack Gravel for 3 yrs living on her w/o frame or iso mount damage, just the frame shock holes/gussets showed some effects. That weak spot is easy to fix so I did. Stock Cdo frame needs front and rear tubes tied to gether as a start by Ms Peel will also tied the area of rear iso mount together too. Not many seem to realize the iso mounts are also suspension road shock dampener to, but regular Cdo got so much going on-wrong at once its hard to tell what's can be so so good about it. My bud Wes has run his '71 30 yrs on rougher longer stuff than me and its beat the snot out of forks and swing arm spindle and iso spaces turned to dust and blown away, it rattles and shakes and is unpleasant to ride slow or enjoy fast sweepers but the frame is fine the rest normal wear parts let wear way to long.

If its was not as dangerous as fun, who'd bother to win?

hobot

Hey, Hobot,long time no hear. Can you give me a holler via the PO Guest Book? That P-11 you mention below finally got sold earlier this year, but I kept the Honda MX front end and Hunt magneto.

I am clueless what the rulebook might be like for vintage MX. It it's allowed, the CR250 front end that was fitted to my P-11 was enormously better than the Matchless forks/wheel combo they came equipped with. The CR250 spring rate always seemed real iffy to me but the geometry seemed to work fine as installed. It was used because it was what I had that had rubber mounted handlebars. The fork travel and sorta functional front brake made the bike immensely more enjoyable to ride. some pics are at www.vintagenet.us/phantom

OMYG!!! Tom Davenport *** You're not Dead, Thank Goodness YEA !!!
Your are the hidden Mr. Charles behind the Charlies Angles to me, but in my case its a one gal attack force called Ms Peel. The rear rod link you lead me too has totally transformed my life and what I expect NAY DEMAND of a motorcycle.

I looked up to you finding a way to actually ride freeways on a P11 via the rubber cushioned Honda front. I believe I have since solved any Roadhoader issues for
on or off road handling and comfort, 6" fluid damped travel on multi rate spring pack and silent stops no matter the flights taken or impacts landed. I finished first Ms Peel up somewhat after we lost touch. Accidental engine combo gave like 70 ph and fork rod combo made me seek reality checks by puttering up to resting squid and serious sports groups with bald fat tires and yell

"HEY Who's the Hot Shot Here, I need to find my Commando's pecking order"
Some got high as shit others pissed as shit as Ms Peel could out handling them
and not lose much ground in straights they'd catch back up on over 130 mph.
Any who an over rev event hit before I got Drouin on and they came out with Ducati 1098 so decided to start over with big block hi CR+boost+water and remove another 30 lb mass - where it counts the most.

Ping me direct, PO/PM here is a process bother. [ hobot@madisoncounty.net ]
I'm want to hear more of VMX's goals and desires and tease him into finding out what everyone else is missing out on.

Killed two deer + a goat and messed up a Great Pyrennes since last contact,
I'm not dead yet either - fully recovered but emotionally deep damage.

Dr, Steven hobot Shiver
NW Arkansas Ozarks

I found some scrambler stuff, here it is, scroll down there is quite a few, some have links to bigger pictures, you have to use your own back arrow to get back to the link page for now. enjoy. http://www.vintagemxracer.com/nortonlinkpage.html

DynOmite on Wheels! Among the few bikes I'd played hard on the Norton twins respond to throttle BLATBANG, while others more VARROOMMMMM. This shows up more appriciated the tighter the turns or the looser-rougher the surface.
Field another Commando and make us proud to hear of your success.

VMX, this says this Cdo unbeatable in its class on dirt.
http://ensanian.com/AE/NortonIsolastic.htm

Just add dirt tires and 30 grand eh.
http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/stock ... 03&Lang=en

Gosh I'm finding more and 'dirt tracker' Norton twins. We ain't even touched the side car classes that Commando power is common in. Seems I'm the only one liking the tamed isolastic kind when it gets hairy.

http://bigdcycle.com/blog/?cat=4 [more views inside Big D gallery.

^^^^^Some beautiful work there.

The Motocross rig is what I would build, if $$$$$ was no object. What I'm I looking at here? I recognize CZ hubs, Bultaco/Betor forks, Olins rear shocks, all of which I have right here in the shed, but which chassis is that? When you talk about rebalancing the crank to run solid motor mounts do you mean rephasing the throws to make then fire at 180 degree intervals? or is it a super balancing job that allows the trapped motor to survive captivity?? :mrgreen:

vmxhannah960 said:

When you talk about rebalancing the crank to run solid motor mounts do you mean rephasing the throws to make then fire at 180 degree intervals? or is it a super balancing job that allows the trapped motor to survive captivity?? :mrgreen:

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One thing helps more than anything else - pistons that weigh 1/3 less:

VMX, with both pistons going up/dn together 750 size engine vibration is damaging to both frame and pilot. Crank shaft bob weight is added to shift oscillation somewhat to horizontal for a more round orbital than up/dn. Norton solved the vibration issue wonderfully by the isolastic isolation of engine/drive train from the rest of the Commando. More bob wt = higher BF = more horizontal vibes, less bob weight more vertical. Pilots and frames can stand more horizontal vibes than the vertical. Norton wisdom/experiments found that 52% Balance Factor went silent at ~2000 rpm and took the least amount of cost in metal and extra crank mass. Essentially all makes of solid mounted 360 twins and solid chassis racers use mid 80's BF %. Even rubber mounted Cdo's are famous for out handling about everything in tight turns and quick flicks, but in turns that require holding a lean steady on increasing power, ie: sweepers, the leverage of the rear patch thru rear isolastic slaps the front iso side to side which wiggles the forks some but forks must follow the surface direction, so this wiggles back into the swing arm and can build up till ALL HELL Breaks Loose. Police and racers tighten up iso clearences to get a bit more handling but traded for more vibration getting through and in the end just add a little bit more speed before ALL HELL Breaks Loose. Jim's pistons/rods help a lot by both reducing the recipercating mass and at same time raising BF at least 10% points.

I have yet to hear a single first hand story or compliant about hinged handling expect by me hobot. I've ridden every motorcycle I get on up to and well into this hinged handling zone, Not because I like it but to know what its onset feels like to avoid or work around.

Solid chassis vintage to elite solid mounted super bikes ALL experience hinged handling but at a higher speed and loading than iso Commando's onset BUT at way higher sudden onset and frequency that no human can react to in time and force. In Commandos it feels like there is rubber bands connecting the handle bars to the forks/tire patch, turn one way and by time you do it's springing back the other way to magnify more than double the pilot inputs but in wrong direction as intended. I call it a flopping fish off the deck into the drink.

I learned to exceed this limitation in sports bikes by entering another phase of handling - more like controlled crashing, ie: I make them hi side at last instant before tire traction in conflicting directions lets go completely of surface reaction, I launch em up hi and far enough the chassis/fork shakes settle down before landing. BUT BUT BUT at the speeds and leans it takes to pull this off, air eddies, ground effect-lift-drop, plus tire and chassis hysteria are splashing randomly > hard to predict the launch and landing correct Each and Every time. Too dangerous to do in public and barely so on race track. No other pilot I've ever seen will enter this state on purpose. You can see exact examples of this in youtube crash videos of tank slappers that toss pilot out of saddle but they're still hanging on to bike and eventually climb back on after bike self righted it self in pure luck out. On solids its too scary, on Peel its just phase 4 delightful glee.

I did not ever in my wildest dreams intend to ride this level but my P!! dragster forced me into it on 1st ride and then 3 decades later after giving up cycling d/t the dangers of big city and no cycle made that was worth riding compared to the bullet G's of that mid 10 sec 1/4 mile light P!! wonder *** THE Gravel forced its will on me with broken bones and bike parts. THE Gravel teaches ALL!!!!

On THE G, as speed and lean and power builds the front or rear slips out, when tires next hook up [if no splat already] the bike will jerk up on its own. To get ridgids on tarmac to take it how I like it, requires scrapping the fairing with my foot on rear axle nut as hi set foot peg has completely folded up and pinched boot out. Knee dragging is silly to me.

Style is so crazy Calif. Superbike Cornering school instructors jerked me off the track each and every time out in freaked out anger. It got down to almost breaking up his school when his head instructor was de-suiting saying he's gone if I'm allowed back out. They had a eye ball to eye ball steaming staring contest *** wordless*** for some minutes *after* the screaming match with me standing there calm and firm awaiting me fate. I'd told Kieth Code the only reason to spend ~$3000 was to learn traction loss behavior on best tires on dry tarmac as if on THE G. PERIOD. He had agree'd and stuck to his word with me and used his Scientology wisdom to de-fuse his lit instructor to stick it out.

I'd found out I could ignore the X marks put down as best apex, so in last class room I asked why the X put where they are. Surreal effect as 30+ people got silent and focused on me, now feeling like a nerd on penny loafers-slide rule holster in polyester clothes entering a gun slinger saloon and looking so puzzled asking >>> Why are all your targets so close up with hardly any holes ???

Code then called out "Jason go show him why you put those X's there!"
Prior I was ridding past students and the racers on their race bikes - being paid in track time for corner watching, but figured none of them were out to learn much new so holding back just having safe fun. Not this time. Jason just took off full blast while I was still wondering how we would do this, I waited till he committed to his X So No Way Could Get In My Way, I turned that sweeper into 3 short straights and shot out of it in a hi side, shifted to 3rd and topped out to 13K rpm, sat up, covered brakes and looked back to see if Jason about to run me over - to see him just coming up from apex. My way is way fashter funner. Inline 4's fight like crazy to stay down, v-twins fight like crazy to flip back up, ugh. Ms Peel stays neutral same effort to go down as come up but no effort to keep a set angle.

I got to examine everyones tires, Keith's too after his solo joy rides. I'm Goodie Locks on tires now, Keith's were melted away, too greasy for me, his instructors were abraded away, too lack of hook up for me, mine had the groove edges worn down with 1/8" long sheet of rubber trailing still attached. My bike was only one to be shut off and its fans ran and ran and ran for minutes after everyone had come in and gone off. I was really pressing it on close in narrow private Texas track with bad pavement and no banked turns. Perfect place.

I had got an SV560, upgraded suspension on pure non DOT race tires while learning to build my 1st Combat Commando, so very very depressed I'd spent so much time/money on such a limited performer. I live in a motorcycle mecca that hot shots come world around to play games I would not be part of. SV is a girls bike in speed or power.

Then I finished 1st engine run in and had 3rd rod installed at tool/die in the woods, they were hot to trot to play trial bike games, so I took after them in Ms Peel and got bored with the paths taking raw woods, hitting stumps on one frame rail to toss sideways or get hung up in ditch/moguls before brave enough to hit hard enough to just blast frame thru the peaked crests and surprised deer I'd out accelerate and zig zag til they leaped over or through barbed wires and tree falls- that were dicey for me to slow up in time like snow skier on edges.
The fellas loved the heavy twin sounds around their chainsaw cycles.

Then I left to hit tarmac and worked up past phase 2 to phase 3 to phase 4 and almost phase 5 handling in 10 mph marked bluff face wagon trail chicanes so tight long trucks knocked railing down for yards on inside of turns. 20 ft radius place known as the "Jasper Disaster". This is where I got Peel up to 90 mph in 2nd between switch backs - entered them at 55 and came out over 65 in .5 sec per turn in 2nd. Brakes not used as side slide on two tires gives better slowing.

Ain't no way a greasy fat tire'd rigid ringing chassis fork trapped steering dampered delayed torque response elite computer controlled corner cripple is even worth comparing for any load traction handling competition to Ms Peel!
To get my adrenalin shakes I have to hit THE Gravel and creek beds - tarmac is a lark, only real effort is breath control to keep blood to eye sight or goes dim.

I can only do phase 5 on THE Gravel, mostly upright straight steering exactly like you do in parking lots, as not enough power to stay loose as THE Gravel. So big block hi CR supercharge water injected torque monster in the works to take more advantage of the supreme handling capacity of a simply modified chassis that flat disappears to pilot sensation but for the quantum states reaction of the rear patch interface. About stock Combat power was more than plenty to spank sports bikes to 90mph in sprints and then not loose ground to over 130 in opens.
Sports bikes can not use much power when leaned past 45' nor to accelerate like a Commando leaps in its torque band as they are wheelie limited. New Peel will have air muscle hole shot device at both ends.

Peel is so stable predicable easy and light effort the faster harsher ya go at it a novice could out ride other bikes. These solid mount vintage races suffer the same limits as other solid mounted moderns. Try as I might I have not been able to upset Ms Peel on or off road. I am a safe/wise rider, never ever ride to get scared or let a bike get ahead of me. Only blind encounters scare me, not lack of handling on Ms Peel. I am able to slide my SV's front tire trying like crazy to even approach Ms Peel's fun commuting rates in highway intersections. SV's judders and tank slaps so I have to let off, not so on Peel, 'she' just takes more power and enters new phases of faster/funner handling.

Peel does not balk to slide w/o crossing up, just drifts wider at same angle and turn radius till hooks up and carries on rest of the turns. At some point I have to flip into straight steer so front is pulling into turn as well as trying to lift bike while spining rear is trying to drop bike, so Cdo twists up to put more mass on rear patch for more hook up out of there. Peel can wind up > unwrap like a sling shot on a spike of traction for most acceleration at point there should be the least traction.

I hate/fear steering dampers, especially on bicycle easy steering Cdo's. They prevent the speed of fork following surface direction or pilot recovery of errors
or sudden change in surface traction/texture.

No one else has ever fielded a tri-linked Watt's like isolastic Commando so there is no comparison but my crazy testimony. Only two Cdo's fielded with a rear link, so only two pilots in the world know that a Cdo can take rough corners hands off and just surf it around completely Neutral while absorbing and passing through transparently the road texture and wind gusts. Slides and skips must be done on purpose with a lot more power lean &/or fork action, never by accident.

I am deeply depressed that Pikes Peak will be paved to the top this year. No matter there are still 1000 hp 4wd buggies to give Peel some worthy challenge.
All the superbikes lose to supercars in contests because because because, bikes can not *brake* hard as cars and can not enter as fast as cars nor hold the G's as well as cars. Brakes have nil place in Peel's performance envelope. Certainly never ever when leaned as that most stupid dangerous un-effective way to slow up. Trail braking only effective if going as slow as race elites into turns, Pashaw!

I detest Flat Tracker style as nil forward acceleration and unnecessary wide long way around. i'd die doing that on THE Gravel narrows. Flat tracker style is just the end of phase 2 handling, counter steering leaned turns, like everyone does, except ice spiked racers and uni-cycling hill climbers.

Keeping in mind Peel only had dual purpose tractor like tires I can't wait to try all road tires next go. Peel powers up for entry and leans like ice spikers but no need to put a boot out like even they tend too. Not on my Ms Peel, No Sir!
So that's why I often say, "ya don't know what ya missing out on w/o a rump rod".


[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBaYOibmgw&feature=related[/video]