VERY TALL 1st gear

R

robertv

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Mar 4, 2025
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Hello. I am a longtime VW mechanic and have rescued an old Norton. 1974 850. I do have it starting and running with good oil pressure.
I removed the clutch which was sticking after 24 years in the barn and found copper colored plates. Good steels. They work, but I have to totally slip the clutch in 1st to get going or it will stall. Original clutch I'm sure. My 1st gear is so tall that I can stall out easy. Is this normal?
I am hoping to try it out on the road pretty soon, Would appreciate any info. Thanks.
 
Sounds to me like you're either not running right at low RPM or you're not giving it enough throttle.

With it idling, blip the throttle. If it stumbles, turn both air screws in slightly and try again. They must end up between 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 turns out from seated. If you have to go in more than that, you have an air leak, out more than that you have a clog or other fuel problem. Turning in richens, out leans - they control the air.

Basically, they all have the same first gear. The front sprocket is probably a 21 tooth since it's a 74 850.
 
The shift pattern may be unusual to you. It's up for first, and then down for 2,3,4. Are you sure you're not trying to start out in 2nd? Also, the clutch action isn't linear because it's a diaphragm rather than coil spring design. There's a point where it goes from mostly slipping to mostly engaged with barely moving the lever, so it takes getting used to if you've used springs in the past.
 
I have a Daytona 1st gear in my Commando, which is taller, but it does not cause the problem you describe.
 
Last edited:
YING said:
What is a Daytona first gear?
Thanks,Mike
Click to expand...
J

Thread 'Daytona first gears'

I would be interested in hearing the experiences of owners employing in their AMC / Norton gearboxes a set of 'Daytona' first gears.
For those unaware they were originally produced for use on the Nortons being raced at Daytona in the late 40s and were 20t - 34t and retained the kickstart facility. Part numnbers 8607 and 8608.
I have heard / have been told that the teeth strip but that it could possibly be the result of the use of the incorrect grade of steel and /or incorrect hardening of the gears being produced these days. Mind you i have recently heard of gears(NOT produced...
 
If the gears are all stock and the engine is running well being in 2nd by mistake shouldn't prevent you from taking off from a stop slipping the clutch. Isn't great for the clutch, but it is possible. I've done it a few times under unusual circumstances. It does sound like you might be in the wrong gear and possibly have a 23 tooth gearbox sprocket. Then again everything could be great and as mentioned you may need more time on the bike. Hard to tell from where I'm sitting.
 
Sounds like you stepped down on the gearshift lever from neutral, which would be 2nd gear (not first)

1st gear is a click upward from neutral, then to go back to neutral is a light half click down. A full click down from 1st goes past neutral and into 2nd gear
 
Thanks all for your replies. I grew up riding Brit bikes in the 60s and 70s, so there is some muscle memory that makes it easier to shift on the right. I will count the trans sprocket teeth. I ordered a set of Barnett clutch plates made for this model. I used Kibblewhite Black Diamond valves in the RH10 head. I used nos hepolite pistons and I was able set my ring gaps using .010 hepolite rings on the standard pistons. .016 gaps on all.
Will update soon when I have more done. Thanks.
 
Most old British bikes were one down and 3 up but the Nortons are the race change shift one up 3 down for quicker race changes.
I have never had any problems with the stock bronze clutch plates (well in the early days with slipping clutch) but best to run with ATF-F (stops clutch slipping), I am still running my original clutch plates after 49+ years, mine I can operate the lever with one finger if I wanted too, its a very light clutch, I don't know why so many have problems with the bronze clutch plates, my Norton was an everyday rider till 2013 now its semi retired just like me lol.
Usually like all maintenance I will pull the clutch plates out yearly to give them a good clean but I find using the ATF-F I haven't been getting sticking plates and the changes are a lot smoother and I no longer need to free up the clutch after sitting, the red oil will tell you if your primary case is leaking lol and don't over fill your primary case 5 to 7 floz is all that is needed for chain lube.

Ashley
 
L.A.B. said:
That's not exactly true.
Click to expand...
Correct. Triumph are the only one I can think of with one down three up gear layout. Not sure about the unit construction BSA but earlier ones were same as Norton. Pretty sure Villiers were the same too.
 
My 4 BSA unit singles are all first down. My 4 Nortons, the Velocette and the Vincent are all first up.
 
L.A.B. said:
That's not exactly true.
Click to expand...
Sorry I was thinking of Triumphs at the time with one down 3 up, but I did say most not all British bikes were the same patten but were all right foot change until around 75 abouts so my mistake.
 
I ordered a Barnett clutch plate set, specific to the 850. Installed today. I set them in oil for a few minutes, then dried and installed, as per instructions. Clutch issues resolved. I have one issue which is a light clunk each time the wheel turns.
I disconnected the speedo cable and will see if that was it. Sounds not serious. Started on this project in March, and not able to ride so far, but......maybe tomorrow. Friends have said that I will enjoy the 850. Cheers.
 
The only British bikes I have ever ridden which were one down and three up were Triumphs. If the gear cluster is close ratio, first gear will be where 2nd gear normally is. Does the bike look as though it has been raced ? If the bike has rear sets and a linked lever the change direction might be inverted. It probably will not have a TTI gearbox, for those, there are two change drums which can invert the change direction. The sensible direction is one up and three down - push forward to go faster, pull back to slow down. For a road rider, the change direction usually does not matter. With Triumphs, the only race kit was for the 1953 T100 - the gear lever was usually back to front to work with the rear set footrests.
 
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Which chain sprocket are you using? My 850 has a tall 1st gear due to the 22 or 23 tooth sprocket (I forget which). Requires clutch slip to get going, but is glorious on faster roads and lopes along on motorways. 2nd is ideal for spirited back lane rides. I think standard is 21 teeeth on 850s(?) and 20, even 19 get regular mentions.
 

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