Various Seeley Frames (Mks)

Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
9,488
Country flag
'It is a much more nimbler feel than the 750 Mk2 but may also be due to lower overall weight as well as different weight distribution and maybe a more aggressive rake and trail. The 500 literally drops into a turn and really startled me when I took it out for the first time.'

If you have a Seeley frame, you should be careful which fork yokes wheel size and tyres you use. If you get it wrong the bike can grab you by the throat. When I first started using the Seeley, a friend who had a lot of experience rode it and it almost crashed him. He told me it had happened, however I knew the bike had been used with a Laverda motor, so I took his warning with a grain of salt. When I rode it myself the same thing happened to me. As I came off a big left hand sweeper and braked, it stood up and turned right, and threw me off balance. I thought I was off it, so I decided to crash it on the grass on the left. As I gassed it to get there , the bike laid down again, and I was able to recover. It all happened in about two seconds. I now use TZ350 fork yokes , Seeleys have 27 degree rake, TZs have 26 degree, both use 18 inch wheels. Instead of standing up and turning under brakes, the bike now oversteers when you gas it when it is laid over. This is not an exercise to do, if you don't have a lot of racing miles under your belt. My bike is extremely nimble, where you think you want to be, is where you will be instantly. It inspires confidence , but you must take care.
I've never ridden it at Broadford, the circuit is twisty with blind corners, and the Seeley comes on with a rush and self steers, not a good combination ? It would take a bit of practice to get it right. The Seeley commando 850 is much more fun than my old short stroke 500cc featherbed Triumph - no anxiety - I love it.
 

SteveA

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Messages
1,883
Country flag
Alan, you have made your comments on your Seeley the problems you found and how you solved them before, so I don't doubt this is all clear in your mind, but I do find it interestsing that most report and revel in fairly neutral handling from Seeley frames.

I am not surprised that DWS reports a nimbler feel with smaller tyres front and rear and recall that one of the fastest, smoothest Seeley G50 (Vendetta) riders I ever saw, John Goodall, always used the narrowest tyres he could fit.....

I think you make the compromise with a Commando engine to cope with extra weight (braking) and power (torque).....but no doubt that the wider front will give more ponderous steering, personally I don't think the rear is such an issue, but I hope to find out riding Chris' Rickman on 110/80s front and rear ( I think on WM3 and WM4 rims) and then my own on 110/80 and 130/70....on WM3 and WM5 rims...but lots of other things will vary too....
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Messages
2,668
Country flag
For what it is worth, on the 750 and 500 Norton Seeley, I am using about 1-3/4" offset. I cannot recall what Keith Stepehnson said I should use as the front and and triple clamps I started with are on another bike at Spannerland.
 

Holmeslice

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
470
Country flag
hobot said:
That is Bruce Yoxsimer's 7R. He let me race it at Miller in Utah in 2011. What a beautiful, fast bike it is. He is very torn about selling, but he's the main man in a very big venture (having to do with racing, but still a little secretive) and the investors have forbidden him to compete until this venture takes off. If it doesn't sell, he will probably be relieved. If it does sell, whoever ends up with it will have a stunning bike.
 

Holmeslice

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
470
Country flag
This is a video from Barber 2011 350GP race taken from then rookie Ricky Pearson's helmet cam.

At about 6:10 you can see Roper on a trellis-framed Aermacchi put a clean pass to lap Ricky at the entry of the Alabama Rollercoaster. On the exit of the turn, Bruce Yoxsimer on the aforementioned 7R comes by in great chase of Roper. Good stuff.

Both he and the bike will be dearly missed if it sells He's one of the few 350 riders to keep Roper honest, and they've had some fantastic battles over the years.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=caKdcZFI1BY[/video]
 

SteveA

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Messages
1,883
Country flag
Dances with Shrapnel said:
For what it is worth, on the 750 and 500 Norton Seeley, I am using about 1-3/4" offset. I cannot recall what Keith Stepehnson said I should use as the front and and triple clamps I started with are on another bike at Spannerland.
I am interested in other comments on the offset, I think the more standard set up is 2.5" offset....its about standard Commando/Featherbed as well as Seeley and Rickman isn't it?

I know Alan has less on his with a TZ yoke set up, and now DWS is saying less.....

Am I right? What do you expect as an effect of this reduced offset?
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
944
Holmeslice said:
This is a video from Barber 2011 350GP race taken from then rookie Ricky Pearson's helmet cam.

At about 6:10 you can see Roper on a trellis-framed Aermacchi put a clean pass to lap Ricky at the entry of the Alabama Rollercoaster. On the exit of the turn, Bruce Yoxsimer on the aforementioned 7R comes by in great chase of Roper. Good stuff.

Both he and the bike will be dearly missed if it sells He's one of the few 350 riders to keep Roper honest, and they've had some fantastic battles over the years.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=caKdcZFI1BY[/video]
That is one lovely circuit. Nice clean passes and both lads look like they are shifting.
 

grandpaul

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
10,892
Country flag
daveh said:
That is one lovely circuit. Nice clean passes and both lads look like they are shifting.
Barber's is perhaps the finest natural terrain road course in America today, with world-class facilities and staff. The fact that they also have what is probably the finest motorcycle museum in the country happens to be a nice "plus".

You can google the museum and get a couple of eyes full including a 3-story "Christmas tree" with a motorcycle on each branch, and a large race-car sized elevator in the center of the 5-story spiral walkway, with dual perpendicular glass cases at each corner of the elevator shaft from floor to roof, filled with bikes.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
944
grandpaul said:
daveh said:
That is one lovely circuit. Nice clean passes and both lads look like they are shifting.
Barber's is perhaps the finest natural terrain road course in America today, with world-class facilities and staff. The fact that they also have what is probably the finest motorcycle museum in the country happens to be a nice "plus".

You can google the museum and get a couple of eyes full including a 3-story "Christmas tree" with a motorcycle on each branch, and a large race-car sized elevator in the center of the 5-story spiral walkway, with dual perpendicular glass cases at each corner of the elevator shaft from floor to roof, filled with bikes.
Thanks for that, Paul. I've done the virtual tour and it's very impressive. No substutute for going there, though :) Two days drive from where you live?
 

grandpaul

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
10,892
Country flag
I typically do it in 2 days.

I've toured the place at least a half-dozen times, and the selection on display is ALWAYS different. They have MANY bikes stored in the basement that they rotate out on a regular basis, plus new donations coming in all the time.

He also has a pretty impressive Lotus race car collection.

My appreciation for the place started at their old location, a nondescript warehouse in the middle of downtown Birmingham; the bikes were all crammed in there every which way, except a handful of very nicely done display areas. NO PHOTOS WERE ALLOWED!!!!! Plus, I got there less than an hour from closing time, so I basically RAN through the place.

If you intend to see the museum, a full day is the MINIMUM time required, especially if you are taking pictures. If you go on a race weekend, go on Thursday, you won't want to miss the action on the track & paddock on the weekend.

If you are there for a full weekend, I can almost guarantee you will meet Mr. Barber who just strolls through the crowd all weekend, greeting people and asking them if everything is as it should be. A friend of mine, on his first visit, arrived well before opening time and he and a buddy were sitting in the parking lot waiting; a gentleman approached their vehicle and casually asked if it was their first visit. When they excitedly answered in the affirmative, he simply told them to follow him; He unlocked the doors and proceeded to give them a personal guided tour of the place, all day long. NO CHARGE.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
944
grandpaul said:
I typically do it in 2 days.

I've toured the place at least a half-dozen times, and the selection on display is ALWAYS different. They have MANY bikes stored in the basement that they rotate out on a regular basis, plus new donations coming in all the time.

He also has a pretty impressive Lotus race car collection.

My appreciation for the place started at their old location, a nondescript warehouse in the middle of downtown Birmingham; the bikes were all crammed in there every which way, except a handful of very nicely done display areas. NO PHOTOS WERE ALLOWED!!!!! Plus, I got there less than an hour from closing time, so I basically RAN through the place.

If you intend to see the museum, a full day is the MINIMUM time required, especially if you are taking pictures. If you go on a race weekend, go on Thursday, you won't want to miss the action on the track & paddock on the weekend.

If you are there for a full weekend, I can almost guarantee you will meet Mr. Barber who just strolls through the crowd all weekend, greeting people and asking them if everything is as it should be. A friend of mine, on his first visit, arrived well before opening time and he and a buddy were sitting in the parking lot waiting; a gentleman approached their vehicle and casually asked if it was their first visit. When they excitedly answered in the affirmative, he simply told them to follow him; He unlocked the doors and proceeded to give them a personal guided tour of the place, all day long. NO CHARGE.
Nice story. Clearly, Mr. Barber treats fellow enthusiasts with dignity - good on him.
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Messages
2,668
Country flag
SteveA said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:
For what it is worth, on the 750 and 500 Norton Seeley, I am using about 1-3/4" offset. I cannot recall what Keith Stepehnson said I should use as the front and and triple clamps I started with are on another bike at Spannerland.
I am interested in other comments on the offset, I think the more standard set up is 2.5" offset....its about standard Commando/Featherbed as well as Seeley and Rickman isn't it?

I know Alan has less on his with a TZ yoke set up, and now DWS is saying less.....

Am I right? What do you expect as an effect of this reduced offset?
The triple clamps I had made for my 750 Norton Seeley Mk2 have a 2.25" offset and that was in accordance with Keith Stephenson's recommendations.

The Minnovation triple clamps supplied with their R.Titchsmarsh Seeley Mk 2 frames are also 2.25" offset. Thanks to Holmeslice for getting the information for me.
 

SteveA

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Messages
1,883
Country flag
Dances with Shrapnel said:
SteveA said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:
For what it is worth, on the 750 and 500 Norton Seeley, I am using about 1-3/4" offset. I cannot recall what Keith Stepehnson said I should use as the front and and triple clamps I started with are on another bike at Spannerland.
I am interested in other comments on the offset, I think the more standard set up is 2.5" offset....its about standard Commando/Featherbed as well as Seeley and Rickman isn't it?

I know Alan has less on his with a TZ yoke set up, and now DWS is saying less.....

Am I right? What do you expect as an effect of this reduced offset?
The triple clamps I had made for my 750 Norton Seeley Mk2 have a 2.25" offset and that was in accordance with Keith Stephenson's recommendations.

The Minnovation triple clamps supplied with their R.Titchsmarsh Seeley Mk 2 frames are also 2.25" offset. Thanks to Holmeslice for getting the information for me.
Thanks for the numbers DWS....

Actually I just rechecked by own yokes and they are also 2.25", which is what I should have said was typical Commando, featherbed etc. My mistake, anywho..

Assuming you changed the yokes based on experience, rather than theory, what would you say the effect of the smaller offset is?

I have seen Alans comments previously.
 
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
9,488
Country flag
Steve,
I believe that the MK3 Seeley frames were originally fitted with Metal Profiles forks, does the 2.5 inch offset refer to those ?
I've just measured the offset on the TZ yoke, and it looks like 35mm (1.4 " ).

When I practice, I usually work up to the corners under brakes, and get the power on earlier out of them progressively. I found the self steering very pronounced, and when I use it I am very careful to leave enough room for it to go wrong the first time I do it in any practice session. Once I got used to it, the handling really inspired confidence but I never take it for granted. The bike comes on with a rush and , if there are other guys around you all riding hard you don't need to misjudge where it will go. If I had used as much gas coming out of corners on my Triton it would have run wide, and I'd be working to keep it on the circuit. The Seeley usually ends up mid-track if you gas it hard when it is laid over. It is a big difference, however I believe it might be dangerous.
It helps if you have a sense of humour.
 
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
4,389
Country flag
acotrel said:
Steve,
I believe that the MK3 Seeley frames were originally fitted with Metal Profiles forks, does the 2.5 inch offset refer to those ?
I've just measured the offset on the TZ yoke, and it looks like 35mm (1.4 " ).

When I practice, I usually work up to the corners under brakes, and get the power on earlier out of them progressively. I found the self steering very pronounced, and when I use it I am very careful to leave enough room for it to go wrong the first time I do it in any practice session. Once I got used to it, the handling really inspired confidence but I never take it for granted. The bike comes on with a rush and , if there are other guys around you all riding hard you don't need to misjudge where it will go. If I had used as much gas coming out of corners on my Triton it would have run wide, and I'd be working to keep it on the circuit. The Seeley usually ends up mid-track if you gas it hard when it is laid over. It is a big difference, however I believe it might be dangerous.
It helps if you have a sense of humour.
And the type of race tyres also have a bearing on whether you have grip or you slide :?:
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Messages
2,668
Country flag
SteveA said:
Assuming you changed the yokes based on experience, rather than theory, what would you say the effect of the smaller offset is?
The original 2.5 inch offset yokes on the 750 was unremarkable. The bike exhibited very good handling with what I would call a neutral feel and confidence inspiring. I was using Marzzochi front forks and wheel from a Ducati Darmah which are excellent but unfortunately problematic in getting them set low enough in the triple trees.

I have not had much track time with the new front end with the 1.5 inch offset so cannot really comment. So far it is unremarkable.

The 500 Norton with the Mk 2 frame has Ceriani forks and a very low profile. When I first got on the bike Herb Becker warned me about the turn in rate. Turn in is lightening fast and first impressions are alarming but you grow accustom to the set up. I am very happy with it but the bike literally drops into a turn.
 
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
9,488
Country flag
'I have not had much track time with the new front end with the 1.5 inch offset so cannot really comment. So far it is unremarkable. '

Have you tried getting hard on the gas very early in a corner while the bike is still well cranked over ?
If you leave yourself plenty of room, relax and don't press the bike to steer, and note where it ends up coming out of the corner .
 
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
9,488
Country flag
I've just measured the offset of the Arces fork yoke s which were fitted to my rolling chassis when I bought it, and caused the bike to stand up under brakes and turn. The measurement is 65mm (2.6 "). I haven't checked the head angle on the frame yet, however it is an original Mk3 Seeley and should be 27 degrees. The difference in handling between the Arces fork yokes and the TZ350 yokes is extreme, you cannot miss it. I could not race the bike when it was fitted with the Arces yokes, it was simply impossibly dangerous
 
Top