twin output coil (2014)

Fast Eddie said:

SteveA said:

pete.v said:

Chris,
I don't know if you can get these over there but the Dynatec DC7-1 is a super solid 5ohm coil that works with all of these EI ignitions. Before the mag, I ran this for years with the Surefire. It is a Sherman Tank of a coil. I am sure the RGM is fine, but I know that this DC7 is awesome.

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I am sure that works fine, but as you said, it is a Sherman Tank of a coil, in the UK its twice the price of the RGM coil, but you really do seem to get twice as much coil

Which is exactly my problem with it....

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When I replaced a Boyer / Lucas coils set up with a TriSpark / Dyna coils on a highly tuned 988cc BSA triple I got an instant 5 BHP increase.

It helped to convince me that it is well worth investing in a whatever it takes to give you the biggest fastest spark you can get !

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Good point Eddie. My current intent is to establish an ignition that works and to get everything running. A bit old school, even a lead acid total loss battery (albeit AGM).

Eventually it will be a kit to fit if all else fails with my future system, which will be a programmable with fancy little Dyna coils (currently I am thinking the Czech Ignitech).

I just dont want to have to deal with laptops and dynos for first runs, but surely I will end up there. There is no reason the Boyer and RGM set up won't be reasonable though, unlikely to be the best choice for racing, but surely good enough for my initial purpose.

Other running bigger twins in CRMC events seem to favour Interspan, which is quite an initial outlay and not very adjustable.

brxpb said:

It was money well spent but you could get a secondhand Jap one from a breakers like a Bandit 600 to try out if it's the right price.

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Coils intended to be used with original equipment electronic ignitions generally have a lower primary resistance than points or aftermarket electronic ignitions which are usually designed to work with 'points' coils, so while they may look similar, a dual coil from a bike fitted with an OE EI would probably not be suitable.

Thanks for all of your input guys, it is really appreciated. I think that the way that I will go will be to get the RGM twin output coil – 12 v. Of course I don’t actually need to get this; the existing coils are working fine, and I could relieve one potential issue by replacing the spade connectors with ring connectors, and insulating them better than they are. As I have stated, my primary desire is to try and build more reliability; I am concerned that with my current arrangement the coils and leads are so cramped that there is a possibility that vibration from the cylinder head will cause damage, or cause the leads to come loose from the coils.

That might not be helped by the fact that I replaced the coil holder bracket that was on the bike when I got it – 70 Roadster - (a 90 degree pieces of steel, which had threaded rod running through it to which the round coil holders were attached) with the later model standard double sided bracket – I thought that the existing bracket was not original; I now understand that it was. I don’t know if the frame on the 70 has any difference than with later models; say steering head angle, but it is really tight to get the coils between the downtubes of the frame and the cylinder head with the later model bracket, which in turn means that the leads to the spark plugs are twisted reasonably severely. So if I can do away with the bracket altogether that will in itself make life easier, even though I really like the look of the cylindrical coils.

So an alternative strategy might have been to revert to the original bracket, but if I am going to take everything apart anyway I might use that opportunity to upgrade the equipment a bit, which hopefully will increase reliability, and apparently might even increase performance slightly.

Chris T said:

and I could relieve one potential issue by replacing the spade connectors with ring connectors, and insulating them better than they are.

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I don't mean to throw you for a loop, but the RGM coil seem to have spade connectors.

Chris T said:

the downtubes of the frame and the cylinder head with the later model bracket, which in turn means that the leads to the spark plugs are twisted reasonably severely.

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If you have the HT leads routed as shown in your avatar photo then that will result in a severe bend, but the factory didn't usually route the HT leads like that.

http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Broch ... Norton.pdf

I use the HD dual output coil and it produces bigger sparkage which is a thumbs up.

Torontonian said:

I use the HD dual output coil and it produces bigger sparkage which is a thumbs up.

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Sparkage!

Love it!

Good point Eddie. My current intent is to establish an ignition that works and to get everything running. A bit old school, even a lead acid total loss battery (albeit AGM).

Eventually it will be a kit to fit if all else fails with my future system, which will be a programmable with fancy little Dyna coils (currently I am thinking the Czech Ignitech).

I just dont want to have to deal with laptops and dynos for first runs, but surely I will end up there. There is no reason the Boyer and RGM set up won't be reasonable though, unlikely to be the best choice for racing, but surely good enough for my initial purpose.

Other running bigger twins in CRMC events seem to favour Interspan, which is quite an initial outlay and not very adjustable.[/quote]

I wasted 2 seasons once faffing around with a fancy ignition system that was supposed to be the 'mutts nuts' but actually resulted in many DNFs !

So I replaced it with an Interspan and never had a single ignition related failure on the bike again! The Interspan is so easy to fit and has marks on the pick up rotor for super easy setting of timing etc. A proper bit of 'fit and forget' kit.

As stated previously, I'm a believer in big fat sparks, so I bought the 'red top' version which was intended for methanol engines. This was on a 908cc Nourish motor. I ran a 'yellow top' version on a 500cc Nourish.

I would suggest that an Interspan would be an ideal super reliable, easy to fit / remove system as you describe. But I would also suggest that you won't find any meanings full gain over an Interspan with your programable system! But I'd love to hear the outcome of your experiments Steve.

As to the notion that Interspan is expensive... What's the cost of just one weekends meeting with a duff ignition system !?! Not to mention hours spent trouble shooting and problem solving...

I rode Chris Tylers Rickman with an Interspan last year.....

After he had fitted a new sensor unit because it ate itself.....

On my first ride of the day.....the sensor plug fell out of the ignition box.....

Sod's law really

I have nothing against their fat spark performance.....I knew a couple of speedway riders that used them way back in the '70s so they arent that high tech its true, but Fred likes to keep them a bit of a mystery. I note that you don't see talk of them outside the UK though I am not sure what that says?

Hooking them up to the charger between each race because you are not sure they are fully charged is a bit off a faff....and I let it go flat....yes know...my fault..and that can happen with any battery based system.

You are probably right that you won't improve on the performance much, but .......you can't back off the advance at the top to protect your motor like you can with a programmable, melted pistons/broken rings will spoil a season not just a race meeting...ask Chris.

As you say, its all experimentation, hence the desire to have a fall back baseline Boyer set up to save that race meeting.

Back in the day it was a back up points set up with welded up AAU! for when the Rita went tits up!

The cheapest Interspan is twice the price of Ignitech! In truth, its not that fancy, it is functional, and you choose what it does, not Fred!

When changing my ignition from Boyer to Pazon I was checking the circuit for continuity from main fuse all the way to ignition box. I found that each connection the Norton harness had contributed .2 to .3 ohms resistance or more. The kill switch contributed another .4.

I cleaned all the connections and the switch contacts but found the fault sometimes was not in the disconnect potion but in the original crimp from Norton. The Lucas key switch, which I suspected might be a high resistance spot was actually a very good contact and added almost no resistance to the circuit.

I bypassed everything with a new ATO main fuse holder and 10 ga wire all the way to the ignition switch and also bypassed the kill switch as I rarely use one anyway. The result is full voltage at my new Pazon.

Since I installed a 3 phase alternator and regulator I was able to toss a lot of old wiring that was just not up to snuff plus the ignition sub harness.

Perhaps the above voltage drop points contributed to the kick back the Boyer put out that locked up the sprag 20 years ago!

I strongly suggest that anyone experiencing any ignition problem check the total resistance from the main fuse to the ignition module before condemning the coils, etc.

JimNH said:

When changing my ignition from Boyer to Pazon I was checking the circuit for continuity from main fuse all the way to ignition box. I found that each connection the Norton harness had contributed .2 to .3 ohms resistance or more. The kill switch contributed another .4.

I cleaned all the connections and the switch contacts but found the fault sometimes was not in the disconnect potion but in the original crimp from Norton. The Lucas key switch, which I suspected might be a high resistance spot was actually a very good contact and added almost no resistance to the circuit.

I bypassed everything with a new ATO main fuse holder and 10 ga wire all the way to the ignition switch and also bypassed the kill switch as I rarely use one anyway. The result is full voltage at my new Pazon.

Since I installed a 3 phase alternator and regulator I was able to toss a lot of old wiring that was just not up to snuff plus the ignition sub harness.

Perhaps the above voltage drop points contributed to the kick back the Boyer put out that locked up the sprag 20 years ago!

I strongly suggest that anyone experiencing any ignition problem check the total resistance from the main fuse to the ignition module before condemning the coils, etc.

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The female bullet connectors have propensity to crack, they should all be replaced. (easy job, no cutting, crimping, modifying required)
The high resistance connections created by them, I'll bet, created MUCH of the failures and swearing Mr. Lucas was blamed for.

concours said:

The female bullet connectors have propensity to crack, they should all be replaced. (easy job, no cutting, crimping, modifying required)
The high resistance connections created by them, I'll bet, created MUCH of the failures and swearing Mr. Lucas was blamed for.

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You could be right, but I bet Lucas designed those female bullet connectors too :roll:

What you call a 'spade' connector I call a 'Lucar' connector.....derived from Lucas Car I guess, so Joe Lucas 'Prince of Darkness' gets blamed for those too.....

Its just so traditional to blame Lucas, even when there isn't a Lucas branded component in sight...

The female bullet connectors have propensity to crack, they should all be replaced. (easy job, no cutting, crimping, modifying required)
The high resistance connections created by them, I'll bet, created MUCH of the failures and swearing Mr. Lucas was blamed for.[/quote]

MK3 - very few bullet connectors. The worst offenders were the connectors on the headlamp and console sub harness and not the connection part but the crimp on the wire. The OEM wire is not tinned so there's a buildup of corrosion between the wire and terminal. I don't even bother buying un-tinned wire for that very reason. ANCOR boat wire or aircraft wire left over from my aircraft mechanic work is all I use.

My MG TF is full of Lucas bullet connectors and most are reliable connections. None are as good as those now used on new cars that are truly waterproof.

I'm in full agreement that bad connectors are the likely cause of all the bad press Lucas has gotten over the years. The road salt in particular is something they were never designed for.

SteveA said:

Its just so traditional to blame Lucas, even when there isn't a Lucas branded component in sight...

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The wiring designs of these bikes isn't a bad design. Just look at any of the current Jap bike's schematics out there. Scary! The Norton's is actually pretty elegant in its simplicity. All of the problems I've had in the past were due to failed connectors and cracked/worn insulation, mostly driven by improper routing (in my eyes) coupled with engine vibration. Yes, Joe is an easy target, but I don't believe the entire blame can be laid on his shoulders.

"Why do the British drink warm beer?"
"Lucas makes their refrigerators!"

'Sorry; just had to throw that in there...

So, with all that being said, what's the consensus for coils used on electronic ignitions? I'll probably be converting the points system over this Fall, and I'd like to make it work the first time. 'Probably go with a Boyer analog, if available.

Nathan

JimNH said:

The female bullet connectors have propensity to crack, they should all be replaced. (easy job, no cutting, crimping, modifying required)
The high resistance connections created by them, I'll bet, created MUCH of the failures and swearing Mr. Lucas was blamed for.

Click to expand...

MK3 - very few bullet connectors. The worst offenders were the connectors on the headlamp and console sub harness and not the connection part but the crimp on the wire. The OEM wire is not tinned so there's a buildup of corrosion between the wire and terminal. I don't even bother buying un-tinned wire for that very reason. ANCOR boat wire or aircraft wire left over from my aircraft mechanic work is all I use.

My MG TF is full of Lucas bullet connectors and most are reliable connections. None are as good as those now used on new cars that are truly waterproof.

I'm in full agreement that bad connectors are the likely cause of all the bad press Lucas has gotten over the years. The road salt in particular is something they were never designed for.[/quote]

Nater_Potater said:

"Why do the British drink warm beer?"

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Nothing stranger that the truth....it tastes better that way....

Of course the fact it tastes at all is a start ..... :wink:

When it gets hot, for preference I drink chilled Belgian or German beer.....it gets quite a way down the scale for me to willingly consume a mass market US product, but you have some amazing microbreweries....

But please, don't ever put a beer glass in the fridge....


Really the biggest problem with Lucas was the motorcycle and car manufacturers pushing them for a cheaper product....

They spent fractions of a penny for a connector.....as long as it lasted till past the warranty it became someone elses problem.

There are worse connectors in the lamps of my MG that are insoldered bullets with the untinned cable stripped and wrapped over and then pushed into bent metal clips, as long as you don't disturd them they are fine...

RGM pretty well sell their 12V coil for analog Boyer installations so it should be a good choice....spade connectors and all....

I use a 12 volt double ended coil off a CB750 Honda with a Boyer - works well. It cost virtually nothing.

acotrel said:

I use a 12 volt double ended coil off a CB750 Honda with a Boyer - works well. It cost virtually nothing.

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Just what the doctor ordered! Thanks for the input.

Just re-lookig at mine and it says Axell on it . Remember it was for H.D. Bike with bright yellow HT leads which I did not much like so used black copper core leads with it. Works fine.

I've now received my twin output coil from R G M and am installing it. My current twin coils have a positive ground connection to the head steady as well as the positive connection to the Boyer ignition unit , but the twin output only has spade connectors for one positive connector and one negative which I assume are for the positive and negative connections to the Boyer. The only way that I could get a direct earth connection from the twin output would be to splice the earth to the ignition spade positive connector and connect the positive to the head steady ground point as well as the Boyer box. Am I correct in my assumption that this is not necessary - ie that I just connect the coil to the Boyer box and omit the positive ground?