Tri-Spark and Podtronics

All these problems with EIs and most with only low milage, I never had any problems with my old Boyar it kept going and was on my Norton for 30 odd years, most say the Boyar's kick backed well in 30 years mine only kicked back twice if they are turned right they work great and now with the JH maggie and no battery to worry about and min wiring and if anything did happen with the JH parts are cheap and rebuildable, starts first kick every time even after sitting for 15 months.

Ashley

lcrken said:

I've been running a Trispark and 3-phase Podtronics regulator on one of the MK3s for several years now, and so far no problems, but it's not really high mileage use, maybe 8,000 miles total since the rebuild in 2014. But I also follow Jim Comstock's advice, and carry a spare Trispark, just in case.

On the question of whether the rectifier/regulator (Podtronics) should filter it's output better, or whether Trispark should put in a better power input filter, we should consider that there is a space limitation on fitting larger components (capacitor, inductor) into the limited space in the points cover, but plenty of room to make the regulator/rectifier a little larger. A simple solution (if the problem is power line noise) might be to design a simple add-on filter to fit to the Podtronics output. If I get a chance, I'll hook up an o'scope to mine, just to see how noisy the output is, but it's a pretty low priority on my to-do list at the moment.

PS: I'm also using an electronic Smith tach, and it works fine with the Trispark without the in-line resistor, but I have one on the shelf, just in case.

Ken

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Ken, I didn't receive a resistor with my electronic Smith tach. Can you tell me the resistance value of the one you received?

@Keith Clark Smith’s recommendation is a 1/2 watt resistor of a 22kΩ value.

A 1/4 watt would be more than adequate in my opinion.

just throwing this out - a little FYI, FWIW - i'm running the podtronix, tri-spark, and single phase alternator (as supplied by alton). don't know what model podtronix as it came with the my 74 Mk2. same with the tri-spark, but it's the early version. running close to 1300 miles on the setup so far w/o any noticeable 3-4K rpm issues. this may not have anything to do with it, but as part of my re-wire, only thing I did out of the ordinary was add a secondary ground strap to the engine. don't know what impact this has on the overall engine ground circuit, but I figure it can't hurt. haven't looked at the engine ground in detail, but it looks to me as the engine picks up the ground from a "nut and bolt" connection off the head steady bracket and not directly off the harness. I vaguely recall that the tri-spark has a small ground wire on the unit, so i'm thinking a good solid ground is in the equation. this may or may not have any impact the problem at hand, but it's good to know about the fix - "just in case...." another vote for the "ferrite toroid coil."

RoadScholar said:

I get dealer news from Tri-Spark, I got the following from them late last week, it may be of interest to the group:

IMPORTANT NOTE ON PODTRONIC SINGLE-PHASE VOLTAGE REGULATORS NOT SUITABLE FOR USE WITH TRI-SPARK


Do you have customer with the problem of misfiring at 3000 to 4000 RPM but not at idle? This can sometimes be caused by problems with the charging system. We recommend running the engine with the alternator disconnected briefly to see if the problem clears.


The misfiring is likely a problem with the Podtronics Single Phase Voltage Regulator POD-1P-Max (CS-4035, JRC 17-104A), 12v 200-watt rectifier – regulator. We have recently discovered that it is causing excessive noise interference.


The Podtronics Single Phase Voltage Regulator is not suitable for use with Tri-Spark Electronic Ignitions. The noise interference is severe enough it could affect any electronics on the bike.


We have developed a [Broken Link Removed] that eliminates the problem that we now attach to every Podtronics Single Phase Voltage Regulator we sell.


The Podtronics Single Phase with Capac[Broken Link Removed] (CS-4030) is an excellent alternative as it does not suffer from the noise interference.

All the best.

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I've had that set up on a Triumph Triple for many years without any electrical problems, seems strange it would only affect twins.

joe czech said:

just throwing this out - a little FYI, FWIW - i'm running the podtronix, tri-spark, and single phase alternator (as supplied by alton). don't know what model podtronix as it came with the my 74 Mk2. same with the tri-spark, but it's the early version. running close to 1300 miles on the setup so far w/o any noticeable 3-4K rpm issues. this may not have anything to do with it, but as part of my re-wire, only thing I did out of the ordinary was add a secondary ground strap to the engine. don't know what impact this has on the overall engine ground circuit, but I figure it can't hurt. haven't looked at the engine ground in detail, but it looks to me as the engine picks up the ground from a "nut and bolt" connection off the head steady bracket and not directly off the harness. I vaguely recall that the tri-spark has a small ground wire on the unit, so i'm thinking a good solid ground is in the equation. this may or may not have any impact the problem at hand, but it's good to know about the fix - "just in case...." another vote for the "ferrite toroid coil."

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The headsteady ground connection is part of the main harness on my ‘72 and my dad’s 74. And then of course, there is the Alton ground battery cable that connects to the primary.

That said, an extra ground never hurts.

Derek Wilson said:

The headstready ground connection is part of the main harness on my ‘72 and my dad’s 74. And then of course, there is the Alton ground battery cable that connects to the primary.

That said, an extra ground never hurts.

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agree - the alton battery ground to the primary is likely the ultimate engine ground. I added my secondary ground strap before my electric start upgrade/mod. probably ran the podtronix/tri-spark about 800 or 900 miles or so before the alton ES w/o issues.

seems to me, since the problem doesn't affect all bikes, it's not so much an issue with the podtronix or tri-spark, but maybe a "hit or miss" combination of the two, but there may be some secondary issue at play here. curious - don't know much about the fix, but it looks like in goes in series with ??? - does it connect to the power or ground side of the podtronix unit? the wires are red, so i'm assuming the ground side.

joe czech said:

does it connect to the power or ground side of the podtronix unit? the wires are red, so i'm assuming the ground side.

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The filter looks to be a torroidal choke. They wire it in the positive lead though it probably doesn't matter.

Caution: Even with the filter, the newest PODtronics POD-1-HP and probably the 3-phase version as well might not work with Tri-Spark. I went through a new bike I built with that combination a few times to see why it wouldn't run right over 3000 RPM and finally tried with the PODtronics disconnected - ran perfectly. Installed the Tri-Spark MOSFET and ran perfectly. Tried an old POD-1-HP and ran perfectly, tried another new POD-1-HP with the filter and it wouldn't run correctly.

I no longer use/sell PODtronics and recommend the Tri-Spark MOSFET even though expensive, or standard bridge/Zener. I imagine some of the other brands of regulators are fine, but I have no experience with them so I can't comment.

" haven't looked at the engine ground in detail, but it looks to me as the engine picks up the ground from a "nut and bolt" connection off the head steady bracket and not directly off the harness."

As stated, the Alton adds a good, solid ground that does not exist with the standard Norton harness. The link from the harness ground to the headsteady, then through some plates then through another bolt is poor as far as electrical circuitry is concerned. There needs to be a DIRECT ground to the engine case for best/most reliable operation. The Alton adds that but absent the Alton, a ground directly to an engine bolt should be installed!

Frankly, I wonder if many issues with E-ignition systems are related to this...

MexicoMike said:

Frankly, I wonder if many issues with E-ignition systems are related to this...

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I agree. Especially with the Trispark that gets its ground through the engine cases.

Keith Clark said:

Ken, I didn't receive a resistor with my electronic Smith tach. Can you tell me the resistance value of the one you received?

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Keith, I don't recall the value. I'll have to find the spares, see what it is, and get back to you. It's whatever Tom Kullen recommended, so likely the 22k that gtiller mentioned. But I'll make sure.

Ken

I was searching for "Norton wiring harness" images because I was planning some work under the tank. Was amazed at the varous methods owners have used for grounding the ring lug near the headsteady. I saw examples of grounding to the inlet valve cover stud, rocker spindle covers (both sides) and also the headsteady sideplates with a powdercoated headsteady. So it is not surprising that there are failures in the electronics.

MexicoMike said:

" haven't looked at the engine ground in detail, but it looks to me as the engine picks up the ground from a "nut and bolt" connection off the head steady bracket and not directly off the harness."

As stated, the Alton adds a good, solid ground that does not exist with the standard Norton harness. The link from the harness ground to the headsteady, then through some plates then through another bolt is poor as far as electrical circuitry is concerned. There needs to be a DIRECT ground to the engine case for best/most reliable operation. The Alton adds that but absent the Alton, a ground directly to an engine bolt should be installed!

Frankly, I wonder if many issues with E-ignition systems are related to this...

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Absolutely agree. That's why I ground to the right most Allen that hold the head steady to the head. I couldn't care less if the frame is grounded on a Commando - I need the engine well grounded and I cannot ensure that at the "proper" location. Also, I normally wire from scratch and my main ground wire goes from the taillight to the headlight in 14ga rather than 18ga and with soldered connections to the ground wires that connect to it. If you ever take a stock or aftermarket harness apart you will be amazed at how the ground wire it run from place to place.

Another thing to consider is that a poor engine ground increases the power necessary to deliver an adequate spark, especially under load - the plug is "grounded" by its' connection to the head. A poor ground from the harness to the engine case transfers that poor ground to the spark plug. Most (all?) e-ignitions caution about cranking the engine with the spark plugs out if they are not properly grounded on the head (or wherever). So they are sensitive to "poor grounds" from that aspect as well. Sure, the spark can "jump" a poor ground between frame and engine but every additional "jump" it has to perform other than the plug gap either reduces the spark available in the cylinder or increases the power needed to provide the spark. Either possibility needs to be eliminated.

FWIW, I have seen drag race Super-Stock class cars lose power at max load for no apparent reason that ended up being caused by an inadequate engine ground. We always installed a large braided cable from the battery neg to the engine itself. Typically on SS cars the battery was relocated to the trunk if it wasn't there already, so it was a lengthy piece of braided cable!

It’s important (I feel) to treat the wiring like we do with the MK3.

There should be only one connection to the positive side of the battery, and that’s the heavy gauge cable that goes to the Alton primary case.

By the way, Alton’s wiring diagram in the instructions supports this:



On the next page though, they show the original light gauge cable also going from the battery positive to the frame.
I absolutely do not agree with this, and feel it should be removed.




The red wire that’s part of the harness is connected at the head - the engine side, not the frame side of the head steady.
Isolastics make a great electrical isolator as well as a vibration isolator.
Also bear in mind there is a lot of paint to paint contact around this area, another reason you should be going to the engine, not the frame.

...this then becomes the positive link to the rest of the bike, so it’s really important that the connection is good.


Earthing on old British bikes has a bad reputation, and Commandos get tarred with the same brush.
However, it’s actually very good on these bikes - there is a red wire in the standard harness that makes an appearance at several critical points, and there is no reliance on the frame as an electrical conductor.


The only poor bit from an ‘earthing’ standpoint is the turn signal indicators which rely on chromed plastic to get the positive to the light bulb.

What wrong with having an additional earth Grant ?

I understand it ‘should’ be unnecessary, but what problems can it cause?

On a starter equipped bike a second thin gauge earth will release smoke if the heavy gauge one fails and the starter is used. Don't see an issue with a second heavy gauge earth.

kommando said:

On a starter equipped bike a second thin gauge earth will release smoke if the heavy gauge one fails and the starter is used. Don't see an issue with a second heavy gauge earth.

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Ok, understood. Good point !

"
Earthing on old British bikes has a bad reputation, and Commandos get tarred with the same brush.
However, it’s actually very good on these bikes - there is a red wire in the standard harness that makes an appearance at several critical points, and there is no reliance on the frame as an electrical conductor."

While I agree that the red wire makes a welcome appearance at several critical points, it's missing a critical one - a connection bolted directly to the engine. The OEM points, some aftermarket E-ignitions, and the spark plugs rely on a good ground/earth connection to function at maximum efficiency.

OTOH, the OEM harness was probably adequate - when everything was new. But having several bolts/plates involved to complete an electrical circuited as opposed to a run of copper wire means that the typical corrosion that occurs over the years has a greater opportunity to compromise the circuit. I guess if you routinely broke/cleaned/remade the headsteady/engine bolts that are involved in the circuit, there would be no issue but it's easier to just install some "real wire" and connect it where it should be connected!