Transmission Rebuild Tool Help (2014)

NedNorton · Jan 24, 2014

Hello everyone. This is my first post but I’ve been reading the forum for a while and it has been a great source of information as I try and get my ’74 back on the road. Thank you to everybody.

The reason for my post… I have a neighbor that has offered to teach me how to use his lathe and mill and I figured that building a few tools to help make rebuilding the transmission a little easier would be a great first project. The design work is coming along but I am stuck on a few critical measurements. The plan was to build the tooling before tearing the bike apart so I was hoping that someone here had a few parts laying around that they wouldn’t mind taking a mic or caliper to.

Specifically the Layshaft First Gear, Sleeve Gear and Kick Start Shaft/ Bush. Plus, if anyone has any input on how much room to leave for the o-ring when installing the camplate and quadrant bushes I’m all ears. I was hoping to build the bush install tool that Mick Hemmings uses in his video as well.

Here are a couple of photos to illustrate what I need to finish up the tool design. Again, any help here would be terrific.

Cheers,
Chris

Hobot · Jan 24, 2014

I've got spare AMC guts in a box in shed at freezing temps so if no one gives the spec's I'd dig em up as need to sort out to build a spare tranny. Some have made a kicker bush puller with cement wedge bolt that expands and grabs notch ground deep down in bush innards. Others say there is special pullers to grip inside to pull on. Others like me gave up and cut it out, though drilling thinner would of speeded the process. Tricky part is how to ream bushes and what clearances. I use ratchet sockets as drifts. Too lazy to dig up oil ring upgrades or true oil seals.

Time Warp · Jan 24, 2014

I can get those measurements including the tool to undo the clutch actuator locking ring (if there is nothing posted beforehand) later this morning.
An Andover Norton rebuild kit arrived from Mike at Classic Road & Race also.

NedNorton · Jan 24, 2014

Thanks guys. I would appreciate it greatly.

On reaming the bushings after install, I was thinking of making a jig and machining a "standard" to aid in setting the hand reaming tool. Kind of like this one that a guy produced to work on BMW rod bushes. It looks like it would work for the Layshaft First Gear and maybe could be adapted for the Sleeve gear also.

http://blog.scottiesharpe.com/2013/03/r ... bmw-2.html

Any ideas on reaming the Kickstart shaft?

The more I think about this, the more I'm leaning towards making a "kit" for folks wanting to rebuild their transmission that would have all this in it. It would include drifts as well as tools to press in the new bushes and bearings along with the reaming set-up, old clutch center and a few other things. It would be designed for the person without easy access to a shop press or lathe. Once together, I'll try it out on my transmission and make it available to folks here to borrow at N/C. Maybe just a "Pay the shipping plus a refundable deposit" type thing. I'm buying and building the stuff anyway. Better that it gets used than just sitting in my toolbox collecting dust.

I'm using all this as a machine shop learning experience and it is getting done whenever my neighbor has time. His company builds parts for the aerospace industry and he has a full prototyping shop attached to his house. All non-CNC. I am also on the road a lot for work. I say this just so you guys know this may take a few weeks to complete and test out.

Time Warp, Did you get the socket for the lock ring from AN? I was hoping to add that tool to the list. If I can get the dimensions we can probably mill one up here. Also, what is the length of the Sleeve Gear bushes you received in your rebuild kit? I was reading that there are some that are longer than others.

Thanks again for all the help. This is turning into a really fun side project.

Cheers,
Chris

Hobot · Jan 24, 2014

Got called away till too dark and cold but when spring comes I've got to fix Trixie Combat kicker something or other wrong and its been some years since renewing bushes so sure would love to rent your tool kit and build two trannies while never easier. Chris If ya got a tool idea that could ease spiral oil grooving bushes I'd pay extra. I'm glad some folks get off on being a laboring mechanics.

Time Warp · Jan 24, 2014

NedNorton said:
OD - 0.965 (24.51 mm)
ID actual - 2.063 (52.42 mm)

1.250 (31.75 mm)

2.068 (52.53 mm)
OD - 1.250 (31.76 mm)

Depth - 1.825 (46.36 mm)
OD - 1.121 (28.47 mm)
Length - 3.7 (93.99 mm)
Depth to seated - 0.479 (12.71 mm)

Bush.
ID - 0.688 (17.47 mm) (Shaft - 0.685 (17.42 mm)
OD at shoulder - 0.983 (24.98 mm)
Length - 1.135 (28.82 mm) (There is a void from the bottom of the bush to the bottom of the counter bore in the kick shaft)

Locking ring tool. - A tube with two drive tangs with square drive on top (Norvil)
OD - 1.656 (42.07 mm)
ID - 1.438 (34.25 mm)
Tang - two of at 180 degree's - Height - 0.173 (4.41 mm) Width - 0.253 (6.43 mm)

Cheers,
Chris

Time Warp · Jan 25, 2014

NedNorton said:
Time Warp, Did you get the socket for the lock ring from AN? I was hoping to add that tool to the list. If I can get the dimensions we can probably mill one up here. Also, what is the length of the Sleeve Gear bushes you received in your rebuild kit? I was reading that there are some that are longer than others.

The tool for the locking ring came from Norvil,I got a cam pinion gear shaft support tool at the same time.
As far as the sleeve gear bushes go I haven't quite figured that out,the stock gear has three stacked bushes but the AN kit only has two in it,maybe I missed something.
Perhaps the stock items are removed and the two new ones installed from each end leaving a large gap between them.

Edit to above.
Checking the AN site only shows two bushes in their schematic.
http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... 07&Part=19
even though my 850 gear has three (supported the length of the gear)
I have my 750 transmission down also to do both together so will have a look at its sleeve gear to see if it is different.
I did notice second gear seems to be the same part on both (1971 and 1974) bikes but thought I had read that the Mk2a had a different second gear ratio,maybe it was on the later versions (mine has a Dec 1973 build date)
The gear set out of my 850 was pretty good anyway with the only noticeable items being a crumbling bush at the kick start / 1st gear and a Portugal layshaft bearing.

You could probably make the ring tool from a socket.
These are ones (four tang) I made to suit Suzuki TL1000 engine and swing arm locking rings.

NedNorton · Jan 25, 2014

Time Warp- Thanks for taking the time to get the measurements. They are just what I needed. I should be able to get the rest of the design done today and hopefully start making chips either this weekend or early next week. I have sketched out a Jig for the hand reaming tool and am just waiting on spec's for the length of the cutter and the dia of the guide shaft from the tool company on the reamers.

Sleeve Gear Bush - 2 or 3? I found this thread: another-gearbox-question-t5771.html

This is what I was wondering about as well. It looks like some folks are reusing one of the old ones for the middle or are sourcing longer ones from other places other than AN. I haven't ordered my rebuild kit yet as I'm still deciding what Layshaft bearing to use. The AN kit looks like it comes with a superblend type but after reading some of the posts here I may go with the bearing spec'd by Mick Hemmings. If the bushes are the shorter type as well, it may make better economic sense after swapping out parts for me to buy a kit from a different vendor.

On the Lock Ring tool... Thanks for the suggestion of the socket. The tools you made for the Suzuki look great. I was also thinking of reaching out to Fred at OB to see if I could get the spec's for the tool that they used to sell. It allows you to tighten the ring and maintain the alignment for the clutch pull. They only rent the tool now and maybe if I promise to make only one will share the design. It looks slick. The only picture of the AN tool I have seen is from the side so I can't see if they have a hole all the way through to set the clutch pull. I assume that they do. Maybe you could post a picture and confirm? Also, would you mind posting pictures of the cam pinion gear shaft support tool?

Thanks again for all the help. I would be interested in hearing what you decide to do about the Sleeve Gear bushes.

Cheers,
Chris

Hobot · Jan 25, 2014

Racers have added a 3rd short loose used bush for decades and now some vendors supply two longer sleeve bushes to avoid them slipping away from best support of far apart spacing. Study this area closely with the hydrodynamics of hi loaded thin spaces spinning any oil withing to the outside to figure a way to let some oil in while in lower gears some how or at least be aware of the situation during lower gear operation while considering ATF thinness to flow and heat flushing.

L.A.B. · Jan 25, 2014

Time Warp said:
As far as the sleeve gear bushes go I haven't quite figured that out,the stock gear has three stacked bushes but the AN kit only has two in it,maybe I missed something.
Perhaps the stock items are removed and the two new ones installed from each end leaving a large gap between them.

Edit to above.
Checking the AN site only shows two bushes in their schematic.
http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... 07&Part=19
even though my 850 gear has three (supported the length of the gear)
I have my 750 transmission down also to do both together so will have a look at its sleeve gear to see if it is different.

You've probably been supplied with the correct two items, although two longer 850 MkIII 066203 bushes can be fitted (or as it has been said, a third short bush can be added).

Time Warp said:
I did notice second gear seems to be the same part on both (1971 and 1974) bikes but thought I had read that the Mk2a had a different second gear ratio,maybe it was on the later versions (mine has a Dec 1973 build date)

I would expect a Mk2A to have the high ratio (23/18) 2nd gear set. It seems that at some point the Mk2 models must also have been fitted with the same high 2nd gear pair (064639 & 064640) as the 24/18 2nd gears (040418 & 040019) do not appear in the Mk2/2A parts supplement.

Be wary of the "1974" parts lists given on various websites such as Andover Norton, Old Britts, etc. as many "A" parts are missing (presumably because the majority of A model parts are currently unavailable) so care is needed when ordering 1974 or 2/2A model parts (also Mk1A) , a copy of the 065988 (307311-on) parts supplement is extremely useful for double checking Mk2/2A part numbers (and there's a supplement available for 850 Mk.1A )

Time Warp · Jan 26, 2014

L.A.B. said:
You've probably been supplied with the correct two items, although two longer 850 MkIII 066203 bushes can be fitted (or as it has been said, a third short bush can be added).

Given the cost of the AN rebuild kit it probably should come with three bushes.
I took a look today,two bushes and central gap with no outer clip on the 1971's sleeve gear,three bushes and the outer clip on the Mk2a's.
The two bush shaft looks to have had some heat at the bush running area's unlike the others (shiny

Hobot · Jan 26, 2014

The spacer 3rd bush is best not to be a new one as its only function is to keep the load bearing bushes separated so if a new one fitted - just another oiless heat wear generator. Two long ones may be the way to go, I don't know though. If any bushes needed the porous oil sweating surface left intact these are the ones. Makes one a bit pensive on the reaming method if needed. One bush [forget which], has holes drilled in it so wonder if any good to do it to the sleevie's. I can decide if that'd just let more oil out faster or let more in while in 4th? There is nothing to keep oil from leaking right out the seam of outer bush yet i can't remember any discussion of wanting to seal it, wonder why? High & dry.

Time Warp · Jan 26, 2014

L.A.B. said:
I would expect a Mk2A to have the high ratio (23/18) 2nd gear set. It seems that at some point the Mk2 models must also have been fitted with the same high 2nd gear pair (064639 & 064640) as the 24/18 2nd gears (040418 & 040019) do not appear in the Mk2/2A parts supplement.

Looks can be deceiving,indeed my Mk2a has a 18/23 second gear set and 18/24 on the 71 Fastback.

kommando · Jan 26, 2014

My MK2A has the 23/18 2nd gear set too.

gjr · Jan 26, 2014

hobot said:
made a kicker bush puller with cement wedge bolt that expands and grabs notch ground deep down in bush innards...

Tap a 3/4" NC (ONO metric) thread the inside the k/s bushing. Stack up your favorite spacers and pull it out with a bolt and washer.

Greg

NedNorton · Jan 26, 2014

Thanks Greg. The tap method was what I was leaning towards for the kit. I was planning on making a simple extractor tool for the tap. Thanks for posting the correct tap for the job. It will make finding a used one on good condition on eBay easier.

Cheers,
Chris

Hobot · Jan 26, 2014

Good plan to just tap the KS bush and screw in bolt with nut to screw right out. Heat don't help much due to similar thermal expansion I found out. I'd actually taken some stuff to machinist to extract and once the tap was inside enough the drill press pull back was enough to extract the item.

NedNorton · Jan 26, 2014

Sorry guys, one more measurement if it's not too much trouble.

Does anyone have a worn out set of gears (1st layshaft and Sleeve) and a Kickstart shaft that they would be willing to loan me to set-up the reaming jig? My neighbor has said that having the parts handy to test fit would be helpful. They can be gears that the hardening has gone and are trash.

Cheers,
Chris

NedNorton · Jan 29, 2014

Look what the UPS guy brought today? I'll grab the rest of the steel from a local supplier here in Boulder and with any luck be starting to turn out tools by the weekend. I also found a good place to get the hand reaming cutters. Chadwick & Trefethen make good tools that will last a lifetime. The are pricey, but will make it easier to get the correct fit after the bushes are installed. I have used lesser hand reamers and they are more trouble than they are worth.

Anyone have a few extra gears laying around to help with the jig and press development? I really would like to have the jigs and tools done before I tear into my transmission.

Cheers,
Chris

WMW · Sep 29, 2018

SO -

Is that all there is, "NedNorton"? Or has the 'kit' come to fruition or died on the vine? My hunch is the latter as the thread has died apparently. Too bad as I begin to undertake my first Norton 'tranny' (social justice warriors, kindly note the punctuation) rebuild. Reading the various, numerous(!) Forum postings I'm well aware of all the potential (good God!) pitfalls.

Walker

Transmission Rebuild Tool Help (2014)

NedNorton

Hobot

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

NedNorton

Hobot

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

NedNorton

Hobot

L.A.B.

Moderator

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

Hobot

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

kommando

gjr

NedNorton

Hobot

NedNorton

NedNorton

WMW

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