The 650SS

Egad.



Ray Pickeral (7, Manx) battles with Griff Jenkins (Domiracer) atBrands Hatch, 1966.

acotrel said:

I don't believe the domiracer would be as good a package as the manx of the same year. It is very difficult to get a bike with a twin cylinder motor, to inspire the same level of confidence. I once rode a good 1961 30M, and I've also ridden a very fast 650 Triumph Triton which was set up for torque rather than top end . The Triumph was good, but the Norton was a better package. The manx made my own short stroke 500cc Triumph look stupid. Nobody needs that sort of anxiety.

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From 1958, 19 year old Paul Dunstall just beginning to figure out tuning secrets for the twins, no 650 yet, no Domiracer with downdraught head, from a Mr. D. Appelgate of Hartley, Kent:

Having seen P. Dunstall perform at Brands Hatch on his Norton twin, which must surely be a Dominator 99, my friends and I would like to know more of the history of this machine which can pass Manx Nortons on the straight. If there is room for an article in MCN it would be appreciated"

MCN did the article and learned that Dunstall's machine had been ordered from Norton the previous winter. It was fitted with a Sports kit including twin Amal Monoblock carbs and 8 to one compression pistons. The only difference to the cycle parts was that he had spec'd "Manx springing front and rear"
The bike was delivered on Jan 4, 1958 and cost 304 gbp with all road equipment.
The Dominator 99 was run in on the public highways and the crank flywheel assembly balanced by the well known tuner Allan Dudley-Ward.
Later on Paul fitted higher compression pistons , eventually bringing the comp ratio up to ten to one.


Glen

Matt Spencer said:

The ' Lowboy ' frame cant of been to bad , even these winkers copied it .

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The story goes that jim Redman, while riding for H*nda and being familiar with Nortons bought a Manx Norton and took it to Japan for them to study - the steering head bracing in particular. That thing you showeth would be quite some years later...

BTW, there were lowboys and there were lowboys ?
The first editon was a Manx with no top fork yoke, just a heavily reinforced lower yoke, and quite thick, and truncated, fork tubes.
Let the rider really get his head down on the tank.
Wasn't real successful, they got stiff necks and had a hard time seeing where they were going...

Matt Spencer said:

Egad.

Ray Pickeral (7, Manx) battles with Griff Jenkins (Domiracer) atBrands Hatch, 1966.

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Great find on this pic Matt, the first I have seen on Ray Pickrell on a racing single
P.S please note correct spelling of his surname;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Pickrell

have you come across any of him racinf the ( as Then) Dunstall 500 Domiracer.
I have seen pics of Tom Phillips and Dave Dower on this bike.

The comment about the 99 passing manx nortons on the straights is pertinant. That would be after the guy on the manx rode around them in the twisty bits ? Some people still believe 'point and squirt' is what racing is about. With my own bikes on our local circuits, I've always had to choose the places where I would be at a disadvantage . If you gear super low you will get passed at the ends of the straights, if you gear high, it will probably be around the twisty bits. A manx is often better all round than a big twin. Twins go well with big megaphones in 'point and squirt' style of racing, but they then become nasty in corners. As I've said before you must often choose between top end and bottom end motors. Torque wins races. I believe the manx is better all round, just too expensive. In its capacity class, it is extremely hard to be at unless some other idiot has a two stroke or a four cylinder four stroke 500. - That is sort of like playing table tennis with a lacrosse racquet.

It is difficult to beat these guys with similar machinery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bax6oH6Bbjw

Bernhard said:

have you come across any of him racinf the ( as Then) Dunstall 500 Domiracer.
I have seen pics of Tom Phillips and Dave Dower on this bike.

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Would he have ridden the 500 much ? - almost past its prime by the time he became involved with Dunstalls.

From his obit (Telegraph may 2006)

"Without the worry and expense of maintaining the bikes, Pickrell continued to impress, and in 1967 he caught the eye of the south London dealer Paul Dunstall, whose Norton-powered twins were potential winners.

Pickrell responded with a string of successes, and in August he scored his first major win in the big-bike final at Snetterton, riding a 750cc Domiracer.

The results prompted Dunstall to offer him full sponsorship for 1968, and Pickrell responded by winning 17 races, including his first TT - the 750cc Production Machine TT - at the record average speed of 98.13mph, including a record lap at 99.39mph.

After more Dunstall successes he switched to the Triumph/BSA team for 1971 and was an immediate success on their three-cylinder 750cc racers. "

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=domirace ... :100,i:235

:?

Looks like an early Lyster frame.

Matt Spencer said:

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See below:





Any idea on the front forks? Maybe Cieriani with adapter plates and Dunstall style front rotors?

" Eddie Robinson developed a new disk brake system. This new system had three improvements over the previous Lister system. The housings, cast interegraly with each fork leg, contained the pads that gripped on stainless steel disks, "

FROM " http://www.woodgate.org/dunstall/history.html " . Spelt Lister here . :? Seem to recal a ' lister / Lyster ' Disc Brake Conversion , so looking it up / for it . :?



" Designed by Southern Rhodesian Colin Lyster, and built in the UK, (London) by Grand Prix Metal Craft.
Lyster built only two or three Yamaha frames, two for Manx Nortons and AJS 7Rs, and possibly a few others.

Lance Weil used Lyster frames for a few bikes. "

:?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G64lm9OOe3c

" 1970 Lyster Triumph 880cc racer by Colin Lyster who created the frame and triple disc brake setup "



& the Forks . Yup . . .


" Ken's XR750 has Ceriani forks with a spool front wheel. " seem to match . Ceriani's , all right . NOW , were were We . :?

Er . . . " New 650 SS prototype " .

Why is the comparison being made between a 500cc Manx, and 750cc and 650cc everything else ? In earlier days bikes were raced in capacity classes. The 500cc Manx was built for the senior class, NOT allpowers or unlimited. These days we even have jerks in historic racing who believe it is smart to convert a genuine 500cc manx into a 700cc piece of shit . It is like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa in an attempt to improve it . When the two strokes came along, that was the finish for the old four stroke garbage, regardless of whether they were 500cc or 1000cc capacity. Yet we still have historic races where two strokes are permitted to race against 500cc manx Nortons. - Historic racing in Australia is all a load of rubbish - what is being re-created never happened regularly except in C Grade races . When it happened in A grade races , nobody raced manx nortons any more.

Rohan said:

Bernhard said:

have you come across any of him racinf the ( as Then) Dunstall 500 Domiracer.
I have seen pics of Tom Phillips and Dave Dower on this bike.

Click to expand...

Would he have ridden the 500 much ? - almost past its prime by the time he became involved with Dunstalls.

From his obit (Telegraph may 2006)

"Without the worry and expense of maintaining the bikes, Pickrell continued to impress, and in 1967 he caught the eye of the south London dealer Paul Dunstall, whose Norton-powered twins were potential winners.

Pickrell responded with a string of successes, and in August he scored his first major win in the big-bike final at Snetterton, riding a 750cc Domiracer.

The results prompted Dunstall to offer him full sponsorship for 1968, and Pickrell responded by winning 17 races, including his first TT - the 750cc Production Machine TT - at the record average speed of 98.13mph, including a record lap at 99.39mph. "

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Yes he did, even before Dunstall dropped all the other bikes in favour or the “ drainpipe” 750.
Pickrell won the British ACU 500 championship one season on the ex-works 500 Domiracer, also, if my memory is right, the IOM TT on the 750 Dunstall Atlas- wasn't it in 1967 :?:
I saw Pickrell race both the 500 and f/bed 750 on the same day at Brands Hatch, just when I was started to get interested in racing and visit the race tracks.

acotrel said:

Why is the comparison being made between a 500cc Manx, and 750cc and 650cc everything else ? In earlier days bikes were raced in capacity classes. The 500cc Manx was built for the senior class, NOT allpowers or unlimited. These days we even have jerks in historic racing who believe it is smart to convert a genuine 500cc manx into a 700cc piece of shit . It is like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa in an attempt to improve it . When the two strokes came along, that was the finish for the old four stroke garbage, regardless of whether they were 500cc or 1000cc capacity. Yet we still have historic races where two strokes are permitted to race against 500cc manx Nortons. - Historic racing in Australia is all a load of rubbish - what is being re-created never happened regularly except in C Grade races . When it happened in A grade races , nobody raced manx nortons any more.

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I guess because several pages back I made the comment about a bone stock 650SS being brought to Westwood in 62 and surprising the Manxes and G50s that had been winning there. The only changes made to the 650 were stock cigar mufflers replaced with an open design and lighting equipment removed. Mention of that event brought on some discussion of how the 650 twin did in competition against pukka racers like the Manx.
It seems that back in 1958 young Paul Dunstall was already trying this sort of thing in the UK with his model 99.
So naturally it is interesting to look back in time and see how the two models from Norton fared against one another. One was a fully developed single cylinder overhead cam racer, the other a pushrod twin roadbike with whatever modifications Dunstall and others saw fit. Here I'm excluding the original factory Domiracer, as it was a dedicated race bike and had very little in common to the 500 twin roadbike.


Glen

How do you distinguish between a kitted road superbike and a pukka superbike racer these days ? I suggest the comparison should have been between a manx and a domiracer, a 650ss had a 150cc capacity advantage, and the only thing which would stop it from being faster than a manx is its weight which only affects acceleration. A lot depends on the circuit, the 650ss would be better if the circuit allowed top end power to be an advantage. I suggest a manx would kill it around the twisty stuff, especially if it had an international rider on board.
What you are talking about are two bikes which were competitive one against the other. That stuff sadly hasn't happened with classic four strokes for many years. Personally if I had to make the choice about which one to race against the other , I would love them both.

The 650 was a sporty road engine with the cc advantage but the Manx was a high revving overhead cam racer. The Manx also had a weight advantage, although that would disappear with Dunstall's racers. He put the 650ss engine in Manx running gear. The 650engine was said to be about 30 pounds lighter than a Magnesium Manx.Both produced about 50bhp, as sold by Norton, although once Dunstall worked the 650 over, it produced more.
Derek Minter's career ended when his Manx slid out while trying to keep ahead of Dave Downer's very fast 650 Dunstall racer. Dave Downer was right behind and was killed when he went into Minter's wreck.

Glen

D igressing a trifle again , but some might find this of intrest . and ' another ' threads apparently locked . :shock:



H.D. etc from , http://www.dadscyclemags.com/tag/daytona/

The garden gate manx looked really great, but compared to a featherbed manx you would not ride one.

Its this sealing the roads thats done it . Real men didnt have bugs in their teeth , they caught rocks with them , or bullets . :wink:
The pre 50 stuffs probably better on unsealed roads , beaches & the like . As Daytona was then . Differant kind of horse altogether .

I've spoken to guys w ho used to race them. Apparently the handling was very suspect, they used to stand up a lot in corners. They have been compared with riding a high spirited horse. Just because they look good doesn't mean they are . In the same era there was probably not much better, except for the swining arm Mk8 KTT, but that's not saying a lot. Years ago I took the trouble to collect parts for one whenever I saw them. I still have two upright gearboxes, an oil tank and fork bits. I tried several times to buy a decent frame, but they were all damaged, especially where the two prongs hold the top of the gearbox - both the box and the frame were an idiot design - just has to fail. Too heavy anyway because of all the forged lugs which hold the frame together. If I could ever get a complete bike, I'd love it anyway, despite all its shortcomings. I suggest that if you can ever get to ride that old stuff, the experience is worth it. I'd actually pay money to ride another 61 500 manx. Had to laugh - saw Wayne Gardner on TV having his first ride on a manx. After it his eyes were watering, and he said 'I never knew what they were riding' - and that was about the good stuff !
You need to remember that a lot of good riders died riding those old bikes back in the 30s and 40s. There are still fools around who think they look good on an old bike wearing a pudding basin helmet. We lost one in Melbourne about twenty years ago when he fell off at about 35 MPH. It is not kids stuff, back in the era the risks were real, and attitudes to safety were different. These days a 130 mph lap of the IOM is fairly common. Back then an 85mph lap would cause you to fill your pants several times.

acotrel said:

Back then an 85mph lap would cause you to fill your pants several times.

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Several times? Did they empty them in the pits?