The 4 cylinder that almost became a Norton

Apparently, the Vanwall car was fast enough to be competitive. however it understeered badly. I don't know how to fix that problem in cars. With a motorcycle, it is an easy fix. When a bike oversteers when gassed hard, it is excellent. Fixing understeering in a car might be expensive ? A 500cc Paton twin should be good, but I think it might nasty and difficult to ride fast. A well-developed Domiracer might be good, but a move away from light cranks had not really been tried. I am surprised by the Commando engine's capabilities. It should never have been capable of beating a TZ750.
 
acotrel said:
Apparently, the Vanwall car was fast enough to be competitive. however it understeered badly. I don't know how to fix that problem in cars. With a motorcycle, it is an easy fix. When a bike oversteers when gassed hard, it is excellent. Fixing understeering in a car might be expensive ? A 500cc Paton twin should be good, but I think it might nasty and difficult to ride fast. A well-developed Domiracer might be good, but a move away from light cranks had not really been tried. I am surprised by the Commando engine's capabilities. It should never have been capable of beating a TZ750.
Click to expand...
You should ride a modern Manx Al to calibrate your thoughts and opinions.

We have to remember that more development has been lavished on the Manx since the factory stopped production than was done by the factory during its production ! Plus they are now made on machinery and with availability of components the factory could only dream of !

Short stroke, 6 speed, 4 valves, modern carb, EI, modern pipe (no megaphone-itis), modern rubber, modern K-Tech suspenders both ends, 125kg wet post-race weight, etc.

Beautifully precise, nimble, agile. A surgeons scalpel…

IMG_9719.jpeg
 
Last edited:
I did not really know what made a Manx Norton excellent until I rode one. I do not want to repeat my bullshit about oversteering when gassed on a lean - but that is what they do, and they are not light in the front. For many years I raced a short stroke 500cc Triton, and I have also ridden my mate's 650cc Triton. Both bikes were faster than the Manx in a straight line, however most race circuits consist of about one half as corners. I only ever lowered the gearing on my 500cc Triton, and my mate did not see which way I went. The Manx was better. I did not buy it, because I could not afford to race it.
A real race bike is very different from a road bike. The biggest joke was when my mates got the 250cc Aprilia Production Racer. Everybody who rode it, crashed it. They could be going like the wind, all tucked in - then suddenly find themselves getting up off the road.
There is a thing about road racing, you never really know what the other guy is riding. Many years ago, I got done by a guy riding a factory 250cc Cotton road racer. He was much older than me, and just rode around me. It is the only one in Australia.
All motorcycles look alike.
 
It does not matter how good the bike might be, if you do not know how to use it properly. My Seeley 850 is very different. I suspected what it could do, however the first time I tried it - I was very apprehensive. The only reason I recognised the oversteer, was I had ridden the Manx..
If the bike oversteers when gassed on a lean, it is safe to gas it very hard. But the weight must be well forward. If it oversteers, it will have less lean.
If a two-stroke did this, it might tie itself into a knot.
Understeer is the tendency to run wide in corners. Two-strokes usually have more lean.
 
Last edited:
ML said:
Leo Kuzmiki (sorry for the misspelling) was a lecturer before 1940 pecialising in internal combustion engines at one of Poland's leading technical universities before WW2 and he like many of his brave country men went over to England to fight against the Nazis. The UK Poles were predominate in Air Force roles of all the European expatriates. After May 1945, Leo was demobbed with '000s of other soldiers and found employment as a janitor - sweeper and cleaner at Norton's Bracebridge Street factory.

One day, in the Experimental Shop (the test facility with the wet Hennan & Fround engine dyno) Joe Craig the Master of All Things Manx came in and found Leo chatting with a young English engineer - (sorry can't remember this chaps name) and being Joe Craig (JC) he gave them a verbal blasting for "wasting time etc' etc' " - but to the young man's credit he stood his ground and informed JC that here before them they had a valuable expert in cylinder head design, the very substance of what that had been discussing.

End result is that that the penutlimate head for the Manx was designed by Leo K. JC died in a car crash in 1956, shortly after his wife had passed away. JC was not a qualified engineer but a very dedicated and focused man on the singular objective of making the Norton Manx single the most successful racing motorcycle of its time. And in its day it was. Hats off to Leo K.

Mick
Click to expand...
hello the young mans name your talking about was charley edwoods who stud up for leo kosmiky has he was a some what of a shy man , and was new to the Works has it was known back then, I do have all the blue prints of the Norton four from 1949
 
From what I have read, the Vanwall was very fast , but it's tendency to understeer could not be cured. I do not know how the way cars steer can be changed, but it does not sound impossible. I never knew about oversteering until I rode a 500cc Manx Norton - it is the difference between a Manx and other bikes. A Manx has it's centre of gravity well forward, and if you gas it on a corner, it stays more vertical and steers in the direction you need to go. You cannot lose the front. When the two strokes arrived, they developed much more lean and could not be gassed in corners -they were lighter and faster accelerating on the straights. My Seeley 850 also stays more vertical in corners and can be gassed hard in corners due to its oversteer. My problem was, it took me too long to discover what it does. I can flick it into any corner and accelerate flat out all of the way around the corner. If you tried to counter-steer going into a corner, it would immediately crash you.
The TD1 Yamaha was the bike which replaced the Manx - for a Manx to win, the circuit would need to be all corners. It raises the question about why we race. Is it to provide a spectacle or make faster motorcycles ? I rather watch the Barry Sheene Trophy Race at Goodwood than MotoGP which has the same riders. How is the sport funded ?
 
I cannot see the attraction with four cylinder motorcycle engines, other than those of the V-four configuration. The first motorcycle race I ever watched was at Fisherman's Bend in Victoria when I was 13 years of age. I saw Geoff Duke fly past all of the Manx Nortons with the Gilera 4. That was actually what brought me undone academically, but probably helped me to have a better life. Sensible people do not play table tennis with racquets which are designed for lawn tennis. If I race, I always look for riders who have similar bikes to my own. If I beat them, it proves I am a better competitor. If the only racing motorcycles which were ever produced were either 500cc Nortons and Matchless singles, Bevel Ducatis or VFR400 Hondas, our road racing could be run with separate classes for each type - we would discover who the real champions are.
 
The only time I raced the T250 Suzuki racer I built, I beat a TZ350G with it - I immediately sold it, because there was no point in racing it. It would not prove anything. The kid who bought it had won 28 races and 4 championships by the time I saw it again in 2003. I am happy for him, he probably loved it. It was not what I wanted to race - too easy. I am probably a fairly good rider. For me to race that would have been silly. If at all, my ego depends on winning on a level playing field against people who really fight. A few guys bought grey import VFR400 Hondas and raced them - that would have been really pleasant.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top