Stumped with an Ignition Problem

Hello all.

This is my first post to these forums, even though I've been lurking in the background off & on since 2007. The amount of information and assistance you all provide has been priceless during my restoration of a 73 850 commando. I now find myself stumped with an ignition problem. I went for a short ride yesterday and all seemed OK as far as the ignition system is concerned. Was going to do the same today but the bike would not start, usually a one kick event. After a bit of investigation, I found I was getting absolutely zero spark on either cylinder.

So here's the setup I have: Sparks 3 phase alternator and regulator kit, Negative ground system, Tri-Spark Electronic Ignition, New NGK BP7ES Spark Plugs, 2x 6V coils in series. All of this stuff is virtually new, less than 500 miles on it.

Tests I've done:

Battery Voltage ~13.4V
Coil resistance, + to - =2.2-2.3 ohms, + or - to case = infinite, Secondary to + or - = 3450 -3550 ohms
Tri Spark module test mode works fine, nice blue spark on both plugs. LED on ignition module lights up when kicked over. Per Tri-Spark manual, Module is OK. It worked yesterday.
All wiring appears to be OK, power where it should be & not where it shouldn't
When kicked over with plugs out and grounded to head - nada, zilch, zip, diddily squat, absolutely nothing!!!!

This happened once before a couple of days ago, but auto magically cured itself after I poked around a bit. (I hate intermittent electrical problems)

So what have I missed?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks & best regards,
Don

'73 Norton 850 Commando
'72 Triumph Trident
'79 Yamaha YZ250

This would indicate a problem with the timing sensor.... I am not familiar with TriSpark, but I am assuming test mode bypasses the sensor, and applies some internal wizardry to simulate the sensor. There is nothing else left. Coils must be fine if you get spark in test mode, also wiring must be fine. There is the remote possibility the sensor is fine, but the signal is being lost inside the TriSpark unit.

Maybe someone will chime in and offer a way to run a test on the sensor.

Slick

Hi

Man I don't know much but what happens when you press your kill switch a few times do you get a spark?

If the trispark is a wasted spark system so both plugs always fire together then start at where the spark path first divides to go to each plug. After dark look may pay off. I assume you have a combined dual coil pack not 2 separated vintage coils.

So I've been mulling this over & have come to the same conclusion as texasSlick. Everything downstream from the tri-spark is OK as it works in test mode. Everything upstream is fine else the tri-spark would not work. Also the sensor is fine as the LED on the module flashes when you kick it over, so the sensor signal is getting into the module & is being processed to cycle the LED. Somehow, that signal from the sensor is not being translated to an output to the coils. But in test mode, a separate signal from inside the module does provide an output to the coils and also the LED. If one had a schematic of the module internals, the precise location of the fault could likely be identified. Not hat it would do any good though as you can't get inside without destroying it that I'm aware of.

Do any of the Tri-Spark folks frequent this forum? Maybe they could shed some light.... Or give me a new one

As for the Kill switch, nothing happens. I even tried bypassing it all together.

As for the coils 2x vintage style 6V coils, New from Tri-Spark. And yes it is a wasted spark system.

Hi.

On a boyer don't know if tri spark is the same if you take the plugs out with ign on and press the kill switch more than once if the wires are ok you will get a weak spark at the plugs . No spark something is up.

As I say don't know if it's the same with tri spark, but with test modes and remote do dahs , it must seem like you're working on the space shuttle.

Happy days

I agree that it appears the sensor is fine, if you see the LED flash on kick over. The remote possibility scenario I mentioned above, may indeed be in play here.

Is the sensor a magnetic pickup?. If so, you could run a verification test by passing a magnet by the sensor, and looking for the LED flash, and of course, spark. The presence of LED flash without spark would most certainly be indicative of a fault in the TriSpark module. Then a call or email to TriSpark is next step.

Good luck

Slick

dgraham42 said:

Do any of the Tri-Spark folks frequent this forum? Maybe they could shed some light.... Or give me a new one

Click to expand...

Steve Kelly (the owner) is a member of this forum, however I suggest you get in contact with him, rather than wait for him to reply.

auldblue said:

On a boyer don't know if tri spark is the same if you take the plugs out with ign on and press the kill switch more than once if the wires are ok you will get a weak spark at the plugs . No spark something is up.

As I say don't know if it's the same with tri spark

Click to expand...

From memory, the Tri-Spark doesn't spark when the ignition is switched off, but then the later Boyers don't either.

http://www.boyerbransden.com/faultfinding.html

Most older MKIII ignition units will produce a spark when switching the ignition on or off,.......

.........The Micro-MKIII, Micro-Digital and Micro-Power units all turn off when not being triggered, therefore it is best to carry out the next test as you may not always have a spark on turning on and off.

Click to expand...

d,

First, without fawning, let me say what a pleasure it is to read a problem description as well examined and presented as your post.

The sensor is a magnet rotating within two coils wired in series (doubling the pulse amplitude), providing a single ringing pulse every 180 degree rotation of the camshaft (=360 degree rotation of the crank), firing both plugs simultaneously.

If you can trigger sparks in both plugs in test mode, and cannot produce a spark in operation mode, then, my lad, you have a defective EI. I'm pretty sure Steve at TriSpark will agree, but it is certainly worth the phone call. Since you have only 500 miles on the unit, it must still be in warranty. IMHO, you have done enough in researching the problem and need to replace the unit, module and sensor, with a new one, and get back on the road.

auldblue said:

Hi

Man I don't know much but what happens when you press your kill switch a few times do you get a spark?

Click to expand...

+1... The most likely suspect. :idea:
...and welcome to the board. :mrgreen:

Thanks Everyone, for you comments & assistance. I'll be contacting Steve at Tri-Spark at the earliest opportunity to see if they can help me out with a replacement unit. Infant mortality is not uncommon with electronic components. If made right they can last a long time, one weak component inside usually kills them pretty quick. Luck of the draw I guess.

Rick, thanks for the kind words. I've seen how some threads can go on & on before all the facts are revealed and logical conclusions made.

When time permits I'll post some pictures and history of my Commando restoration. It's been a long process, but she's up and running ('til yesterday anyway). Still quite a bit of sorting out to do yet.

Thanks & best regards,

Don

Update

After a few e-mails back and forth with Steve at Tri-Spark, an new module is on it's way. It's good to see a manufacturer stand behind what they sell. The old Norton will be back on the road soon, assuming my module is not coming via boat of course.

+1 for Steve & Tri-Spark for good customer service!

Best regards,

Don

Another update...

Received my new tri spark in the mail yesterday, installed & running again in about 20 minutes & 5 kicks. It had been sitting a while...

thanks again Steve & Tri-Spark

Don

One thing that is confusing is first you said,

dgraham42 said:

I found I was getting absolutely zero spark on either cylinder.

Click to expand...

And then you said,

dgraham42 said:

Tri Spark module test mode works fine, nice blue spark on both plugs.

Click to expand...

What made the difference in these statements.

Ah so blueman, I've created as many electrical gremlins as fixed them, so have found sources by slight flashes to blinding sparks - after dark.

hobot
Near had an aki peevi there, thought of me and two equally mechanically challenged trying to start a Coventry climax forklift I had sold to a Polish gentleman. Big spark , enormous bang, then acid shower.
Took about an hour till hearing came back.

Remember guys batteries are dangerous be careful, eh what was that you said, it's the bells!