Sleeve gear Problem?

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snowdr

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I rebuilt the gearbox about 3500 miles ago with all bearings and bushes replaced together with mainshaft 1st 2nd 3rd gears and layshaft 2nd 4th. The gearbox has been operating perfectly since, but I have been suffering with a noise, a whining noise, which has recently been getting louder. It appears to come from the left hand side, and my first thought was the primary drive, but I have been unable to find a problem there. As the noise has been getting more obvious, I have been able to analyse it more. I cannot hear it with the bike stationary, revving, with clutch in or out. It does not occur in top gear, only in the lower 3. It varies in character with power on and off.

I drained the gearbox a couple of days ago, and found metal shavings on the drain plug magnet. So I reluctantly decided to strip it all down to investigate, but I have found nothing obvious. Layshaft 3rd gear has some slight scuffing, but apart from that the gears look good. The bearings all feel good. The sleeve gear bushes look dry, particularly the outer bush. The mainshaft is a very easy sliding fit in the bushes, as is the sleeve gear itself in the bearing. Should they be that loose?

I suspected the sleeve gear, given the symptoms, but, really, I’m not sure where to go from here. Can someone offer some advice, or suggest what could be causing the whining noise.

I will be very grateful for any help.

Thanks

Ray
 
I had a similar noise on a B40 that I had put a new sleeve ball bearing in. This was my first ever bearing replacement and when I first learnt about bearing internal clearances, I had fitted a CN when it should have been C3 and when changed to a C3 end of noise. Well it was actually dots on the bearing which was before ISO so shows you how long ago it was.
 
snowdr said:
I rebuilt the gearbox about 3500 miles ago with all bearings and bushes replaced together with mainshaft 1st 2nd 3rd gears and layshaft 2nd 4th. The gearbox has been operating perfectly since, but I have been suffering with a noise, a whining noise, which has recently been getting louder. It appears to come from the left hand side, and my first thought was the primary drive, but I have been unable to find a problem there. As the noise has been getting more obvious, I have been able to analyse it more. I cannot hear it with the bike stationary, revving, with clutch in or out. It does not occur in top gear, only in the lower 3. It varies in character with power on and off.

I drained the gearbox a couple of days ago, and found metal shavings on the drain plug magnet. So I reluctantly decided to strip it all down to investigate, but I have found nothing obvious. Layshaft 3rd gear has some slight scuffing, but apart from that the gears look good. The bearings all feel good. The sleeve gear bushes look dry, particularly the outer bush. The mainshaft is a very easy sliding fit in the bushes, as is the sleeve gear itself in the bearing. Should they be that loose?

I suspected the sleeve gear, given the symptoms, but, really, I’m not sure where to go from here. Can someone offer some advice, or suggest what could be causing the whining noise.

I will be very grateful for any help.

Thanks

Ray
Click to expand...
Probably slight brinelling on 2nd and 3rd gear teeth, that's maybe why you don't get the noise when in 4th gear.

2nd gear is believed to be more prone to that on some 850's, I think the gear ratio gap between 1st and 2nd was altered to maybe try and also reduce that wear problem.

You could renew the gears again but I've read that some members on this forum have noticed the wear returning again after a few thousand miles.

I think some minor metal shavings on the drain plug after a rebuild is probably the result of the normal bedding of rough edges from the new gears etc.

Did you soak the sleeve gear bushes in gear oil overnight before assembly?

Nice sliding fit of the mainshaft and sleeve gear seems correct to me.



Have you seen the Mick Hemmings gearbox DVD that he done for NOC?
 
The steel shavings are attracted to the magnet . The bronze dust circulates in the gearbox oil .
Examine the oil for bronze particulates , put a bit on glass and hold it up to a light .
A tight chain is hard on the sleeve gear bushes .
 
concours

Thread 'Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)'

I had the opportunity to repair my failed transmission (still working, but 2nd had a funny "thump, thump, thump" noise.
Disassembly revealed a LOT of damage....
Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)


Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)


I set to work inspecting (the case, sleeve gear and first gear lay were the only usable moving parts) and ordering parts. When I began assembly, the first stoppage was the second gear main would not slide all the way onto the splines on the new mainshaft :x Note the spline cut DEEP in one index only. I tested the OLD gear, would not go on. Tried the NEW gear on the OLD shaft, fit right on, so it...
  • Like

TEST, don't guess. Inspect your sleeve gear.
 
In my experience even OEM original Norton / Norton Villers and NVT gears are not made with the right stuff or have great quality machining and finishes. and the aftermarket and bootlegs are even worse. And now with increase in prices, transmission repairs even for a few replacement gears is very costly.

I long for the days of Quaife gears, "they could take a licking and keep on ticking." Triumphs do not suffer gear tooth abrasion.

If I could afford one, I'd love to buy a complete new Andover transmission to inspect it to see the machining quality and to use it gently for a thousand mile to see how it "wears in" or "wears out" as the case maybe. But I kinda have a feeling what the outcome would be.
snowdr said:
I rebuilt the gearbox about 3500 miles ago with all bearings and bushes replaced together with mainshaft 1st 2nd 3rd gears and layshaft 2nd 4th. The gearbox has been operating perfectly since, but I have been suffering with a noise, a whining noise, which has recently been getting louder. It appears to come from the left hand side, and my first thought was the primary drive, but I have been unable to find a problem there. As the noise has been getting more obvious, I have been able to analyse it more. I cannot hear it with the bike stationary, revving, with clutch in or out. It does not occur in top gear, only in the lower 3. It varies in character with power on and off.

I drained the gearbox a couple of days ago, and found metal shavings on the drain plug magnet. So I reluctantly decided to strip it all down to investigate, but I have found nothing obvious. Layshaft 3rd gear has some slight scuffing, but apart from that the gears look good. The bearings all feel good. The sleeve gear bushes look dry, particularly the outer bush. The mainshaft is a very easy sliding fit in the bushes, as is the sleeve gear itself in the bearing. Should they be that loose?

I suspected the sleeve gear, given the symptoms, but, really, I’m not sure where to go from here. Can someone offer some advice, or suggest what could be causing the whining noise.

I will be very grateful for any help.

Thanks

Ray
Click to expand...
Look for abrasion of the teeth on all the gears. Usually 2nd gear seems to whine the most. Also adding Lucas gear oil additive can reduce the whine.

With the damage concours suffered, he is lucky his ride didn't end up in the ER via a life flight helicopter.
 
Problem is that when you have a gearbox of unknown parts it is easy to mix gears, the AH and AHB is well known but what is not well known is that the sleeve gear must be used with the correct layshaft 4th gear as well. In the photo above one gear looks like it has gear teeth and the other looks like it has triangular daggers on it.
There are still two dangerous gears in circulation the RS gears are still out there and there is another that we have seen shatter on two occasions. As for quaife, even they can fail as they have on the Kuhn bike here and from enquiries we get from owners looking for replacements gears we are not the only ones. Works Racing inherited the Quaife business but I think that they no longer do them either.
If anyone wants to view and inspect our gearboxes and the parts within then feel free to ask when you are here, I have nothing to hide, and as someone who answers the phone to more owners than anyone else I get to hear of what is out there and the failures - I know what gears I would use.
 
tt might help if AN stated that the sleeve gear and layshaft 4th gear changed at serial 128646 which is part 04.0422 not as listed and matching layshaft 4th is part 04.0284.

06. 5954 only replaces the earlier sleeve gear with the later layshaft 06.1058 4th gear as a pair.
 
I've just come across Andover's video on the sleeve gear, which raises this issue about a possible mismatch with the layshaft 4th. Before the rebuild, all the gearbox internals were original and all replacement parts were sourced from Andover. In the rebuild, I retained the original sleeve gear, which is marked 'AH', (with new long bushes), but replaced the layshaft 4th. The new gear is marked 'AH', but the original is marked '9', so was this the earlier layshaft 4th? Within my ability to measure, they look a very similar size, but is there an incompatibility here which has created my problem?
 

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Carl H said:
In my experience even OEM original Norton / Norton Villers and NVT gears are not made with the right stuff or have great quality machining and finishes. and the aftermarket and bootlegs are even worse. And now with increase in prices, transmission repairs even for a few replacement gears is very costly.

I long for the days of Quaife gears, "they could take a licking and keep on ticking." Triumphs do not suffer gear tooth abrasion.

If I could afford one, I'd love to buy a complete new Andover transmission to inspect it to see the machining quality and to use it gently for a thousand mile to see how it "wears in" or "wears out" as the case maybe. But I kinda have a feeling what the outcome would be.

Look for abrasion of the teeth on all the gears. Usually 2nd gear seems to whine the most. Also adding Lucas gear oil additive can reduce the whine.

With the damage concours suffered, he is lucky his ride didn't end up in the ER via a life flight helicopter.
Click to expand...
You are spot on Carl. The surface finish on the teeth (gears produced 10 yearsago) is horrible. I have pics and artifacts somewhere. Poor finish and then hardened. My box whines as well, (like the O.P., only in the lower 3 gears) but I knew it would. Doesn't bother me in the least.
I'm happy to have a source.
 
Last edited:
I have contacted Andover about this, and I had a fairly detailed reply from Ashley. He has discovered that there were changes to both the sleeve gear and the layshaft 4th over time, and that the markings in the layshaft 4th do not necessarily define exactly which version it is. His recommendation is that, when layshaft 4th is marked with a '9', that these are always replaced as a pair with the sleeve gear. As an incompatibility here does certainly explain my symptoms, and I cannot find anything else amiss, I am going to order a replacement pair of the sleeve gear and layshaft 4th, and get everything back together. I will then have to keep everything crossed that it is problem solved.
Incidentally, I omitted to say that my bike is a 1972 750, so this issue apparently carried on well after the 1968 date that has been mentioned.
Thanks to everyone who responded.
Ray
 
snowdr said:
!He has discovered that there were changes to both the sleeve gear and the layshaft 4th over time,
Click to expand...
Discovered, it's been well known for ages that the change happened at 128646 it's even in the parts book (although it doesn't give the serial number) and the Norton International Owners Association Tech Digest which does.
Sleeve gear Problem?

And elsewhere.
Sleeve gear Problem?
06.5954 being the latest type sleeve gear.
 
Yes, discovered, as sadly there are different size 06.1057 & 06.1058, the part number was kept as was the 'AH' marking. So there is possibility of using different size gears with the same part number and marking. The parts book on page 11 and 37 read the same part numbers.
The 'new type' was introduced it seems prior to the gear teeth form on 06.1057 & 06.1058 changing in December 1968.
The '9' marking seen on some of the gears found in the early Commando was introduced in June 1968
In Sept '68 'New type' the drawings were changed to mark the gears AH but no dimensional change happened at this time.
The dimensional change for both 06.1057 & 06.1058 marked AH happened in Dec '68 at this time both the part number and marking remained the same
In 1971 06.1057 changed again dimensionally and still kept the same part number and marking.
Sadly it seems that a drawing for 06.1057 using the '9' marking was still being used in May '68 it would have produced a part at this time with the same dimensions as the gear marked AH.

This might just be why some gearboxes whine, and what was fitted in the very early first 6 months of Commando production is anyone guess.
 
Madnorton said:
The dimensional change for both 06.1057 & 06.1058 marked AH happened in Dec '68 at this time both the part number and marking remained the same
Click to expand...

That's not how I read it in my copy as the early parts were 040422 and 040284 according to page 11 same as Atlas etc.

It even says so at AN but the part only swaps as a set with the later layshaft 061058 4th gear which it does't mention.

andover-norton.co.uk

Andover Norton - SLEEVE GEAR MAINSHAFT 4th complete with BUSHES AND CIRCLIPS 23T - 06.5954

SLEEVE GEAR MAINSHAFT 4th complete with BUSHES AND CIRCLIPS 23T
andover-norton.co.uk andover-norton.co.uk

Information appears correct for Atlas but not for early Commando before 128646.
andover-norton.co.uk

Andover Norton Parts Drawings - Andover Norton Factory Parts - Commando Parts

Andover Norton Parts are the only Norton spare parts in the market manufactured to original drawings, within the factory-approved tolerances, from the correct materials, and with the correct finish.
andover-norton.co.uk andover-norton.co.uk
andover-norton.co.uk

Andover Norton - LAYSHAFT 4TH GEAR 18T - 04.0284

LAYSHAFT 4TH GEAR 18T
andover-norton.co.uk andover-norton.co.uk
andover-norton.co.uk

Andover Norton - LAYSHAFT 4TH GEAR 18T - 06.1058

LAYSHAFT 4TH GEAR 18T
andover-norton.co.uk andover-norton.co.uk

The 3rd gear pair were also changed at 133488.
 
In which case this is even worse as there are two parts books for the 1968 Commando with one showing the use of the 04.xxxx gears and one showing the use of the 06.xxxx gears for the early '68 models. This may also explain why we have had a few cases of owners ordering the 06.1058 only to find it does not fit. Couple this with the 06.1057 and the 06.1058 changing dimension and keeping the same part number and marking does not really help anyone.
Until snowdr emailed me I only knew of cases of the 4th gear layshaft where the gear with a '6' or '9' (not a great choice of stamping by AMC) was usually an issue, it was only when I worked back from 1974 that I realised that the 06.1057 and 06.1058 changed as well but still kept the marking and part number. Why they changed is anyone's guess but it very much signals that they knew they had problems with the early 06.1057 and 06.1058 from Sept 1968 through to December 1968 and again in 1971.
I don't have access to the website to make changes but I will try and get it made clearer.
 
Madnorton said:
I don't have access to the website to make changes but I will try and get it made clearer.
Click to expand...

While you're at it why has AN decided this top bolt should be 7/8" not 1" on Mk3.
andover-norton.co.uk

Andover Norton Parts Drawings - Andover Norton Factory Parts - Commando Parts

Andover Norton Parts are the only Norton spare parts in the market manufactured to original drawings, within the factory-approved tolerances, from the correct materials, and with the correct finish.
andover-norton.co.uk andover-norton.co.uk
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details-2/17565/hex-head-screw-3-8-unf-x-7-8-zinc-plated
1" fits fine. Or have they got top and bottom bolts muddled up although 1" still fits at the lower end without touching the disc as long as a thick washer is used. There's also no nut on that top bolt as shown on the drawing (it wouldn't fit on a 1" bolt so it won't fit on 7/8" and in any case doesn't need to be there).
Sleeve gear Problem?
Bottom 1" bolt.
Sleeve gear Problem?
Sleeve gear Problem?
 

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