Some Andover Norton transmission parts quality escapes (2015)

concours

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I had the opportunity to repair my failed transmission (still working, but 2nd had a funny "thump, thump, thump" noise.
Disassembly revealed a LOT of damage....
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I set to work inspecting (the case, sleeve gear and first gear lay were the only usable moving parts) and ordering parts. When I began assembly, the first stoppage was the second gear main would not slide all the way onto the splines on the new mainshaft :x Note the spline cut DEEP in one index only. I tested the OLD gear, would not go on. Tried the NEW gear on the OLD shaft, fit right on, so it confirms the NEW shaft was not acceptable.
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3 hours of stoning by hand with a 1/4" triangular stone got the gear to go on, if only in ONE orientation. I match marked it with paint marker for assembly. Had I not been leaving on a trip, I would have sent the shaft STRAIT BACK to AN. Machine shop dumpster material.
The horrid spline surface finish is visible here:
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I was finally able to get it assembled. The obligatory rollover by hand revealed a once per mainshaft revolution bind. I re-checked everything, used bluing to look for unusual contact patterns on gears, shift forks, etc. Nothing found. I kept removing gears, forks, etc., until only shafts left. bind was present with 4th set, but gone without. sufficient backlash present. I set up an indicator on the mainshaft at the clutch end, good, set up on the sleeve gear out board of the sprocket, .010" runout... WTF... "BENT" sleave gear? must have a crumb between the gear/bearing (NOT my usual MO!) so, apart it comes... then I remember saying earlier... "boy, that radius on the inner race looks unusually small. Oh well, it must be good, U.K. made bearing, sold by AN at three times what a common commercial bearing goes for, it MUST be ok"
WRONG. After more inspection, bluing, measuring, it's shown the radius hits before the precision ground shoulder on the sleeve gear contacts the bearings race as designed. This provided an inaccurate locating of the sleeve gear, causing it to orbit, and runout as observed. Meanwhile, there is significant time invested (WASTED!! :x ) here, the heating of the case, outer seal glued in, etc.
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Here, you can see the daylight between the inner race and sleeve gear, a .005" feeler gage confirms it :shock:
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Genuine AN quality, and ALL the money paid for these horribly low quality parts. :roll:
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The AN bearing shown with a radius gage fouling :shock: :x
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And the $25 commercial grade bearing from my local bearing supplier with an industry standard radius :oops:
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So, after laying out two tall for a hand full of parts, my time wasted reworking, backtracking and improvising is huge. The quality is dismal. Whoever (NOT a machinist) made that mainshaft, inspected and packaged it, should have it jammed up their nostril so they never lose sight of their work. :x :mrgreen:
 

madass140

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what make of bearing is it?
seems someone has a lot of explaining to do.
 
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We use the term "Jam it up Their Ass" here on Godzone.
Trouble is, unless you let them know there is a problem, they cant fix it.
I don't rely on get my bikes going in a hurray either. As some one has mentioned to me recently, you buy one part or fix one part on these machines just so you can buy or fix 2 others as well.
That's why I have 2 Commandos. I only get shitty when both are in bits a the same time. Mind you, as a retired mechanic, I earned the right years ago to "swear like a trooper" because of all the shit I had to work on. That's why [ apart from the Norton's ] I only buy Toyotas.
 
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AN must have sold you "export quality" material since you are too far away from them come over and grab them by their necks.
Problem is, that we are inclined to do whatever possible to make this crap fit, instead of throwing this stuff back to the supplier and tell tem that we do not wish to spend our hard earned money on this kind of garbage quality material.
Should we as Norton owners become used to spending many hours to make parts fit ? the answer unfortunately is Yes.
AN certainly has a lot of explaining to do here.
 

ntst8

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swooshdave said:
I can see the full invoice. Was it bought directly from Andover or a dealer?
Doesn't look like an AN invoice, the ones i have received have a large norton N filling the page.
I would be talking to the supplier and, if supply was through a reseller, to AN.
I have only had one hiccup when dealing with AN and their response in that case couldn't be faulted.
 
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the bearing looks to have the RHP branding on it RHP no longer produce the LJ31.7=1 1-1/4" id bearing ?????

so i can only assume AN are having the 1" ID RHP bearing ground internally to 1-1/4" id and making a balls of it !!!

And yes you can buy the doubled sealed 1-1/4" ID bearings factory ground TO THE RIGHT RADIUS from any brit motorcycle dealer / bearing specialist for £15.00
 

madass140

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"so i can only assume AN are having the 1" ID RHP bearing ground internally to 1-1/4" id and making a balls of it !!!"
I think you nailed it Frankie
I just fitted one to my own tranny from my stock of Chinese made ones, they are not reground bearings, they have the correct radius.
 

ZFD

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A customer drew my attention to this thread, so allow me to comment.

1. The bearing cannot be flush with the sleeve gear because the sleeve has a flat that stands proud from the teeth of the gear- see your 6th picture from the top where this shoulder can be clearly seen.
No matter what the radius is on the inner race of the bearing the shoulder will still stop against that flat and daylight will be seen.
I took a new sleeve gear out of my stock. The shoulder is at 90° to the shaft of the gear with no perceivable radius, so whether the sleeve gear bearing has a radius or not- and our current ones have- should make no difference when fitting the bearing to the sleeve gear. Our bearings are not ground by us, we buy them as they are.

You tried to fit that bearing to a used sleeve gear of unknown origin. The problem may come from the bearing- I doubt it, having personally rebuilt two gearboxes with our bearings for my own bikes in the last twelve months- or from the used sleeve gear.

Two trade customers of mine, both very experienced and competent, repair and restore one Norton after the other. If parts are lacking in quality I hear back from them very quickly. I have not heard from them about gearbox mainshafts or sleeve gear bearings for many years- indeed can't remember if we ever had problems with the mainshafts, before or during my now 8-year reign or before, and certainly never about sleeve gear bearings.

2. I next took a new mainshaft and second gear out of stock. I slid the gear on the mainshaft. No stoning by hand necessary, just slide on and off in whatever direction.... sorry! Our current mainshafts look nothing like the shaft your photo shows. What was the Andover Norton address on the package? Andover, Hungerford, or Southampton? I just wonder how old the shaft in question was.

3.
AN must have sold you "export quality" material since you are too far away from them come over and grab them by their necks.
An old saga, and a practise I actually experienced with certain British "Norton Specialists" in years gone by. But not ours. We have introduced a quality control system after I took the company over, against considerable internal resistence from old hands. As every manufacturer can confirm there is always the odd mistake slipping through. But we try.

If you have quality problems with our parts, WE like to hear about them. It may be a real problem, say a manufacturing fault we did not recognize at the goods inward check. With quality issues more often than not the goods aren't ours but the customer thought they were ours because misleading imitations of our labels by the seller led him to that conclusion.

Rest asured my kids and I all ride Nortons on road and track and, therefore, want our parts to be right.

I also run a 50/50 retail and wholesale shop in Germany, so get feedback on our parts every day from amateurs and professionals, and quite independently from our operation in Andover.

If you have problems with our parts, send me a pm or turn to our office in Andover, office@andover-norton.co.uk

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
 
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Another sad part about this story is not everyone has the expertise to know what is wrong, or in the case of the slight bind after final assembly, if anything is wrong. "It's probably just a little tight, it'll work it's way in" would come to a lot of peoples minds. Someone who has maybe gotten up the courage and is working just a bit outside of their comfort zone on a gearbox would be S.O.L. with these parts.
Maybe you could send your original post, if not the entire thread once it runs a bit, to A.N. Would be interesting to see response.

OH yah, And the 'Kank' is still there.

[amendment] Saw that A.N. knows and now rather than just bandwagon rant by me, I have to say A.N.'s response was commendable. This is a mystery.
 
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But now I'm looking at photo #6 as directed by A.N. and can see the shoulder in question. I can also in photo #9 that the shoulder is not in contact with the inner race so still looks to me that something isn't right. Can understand that bearing clearance is needed on either ide of the bearing for proper lubrication, but believe that bearing should be right down to the shaft's shoulder.
 
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Peter R said:
AN must have sold you "export quality" material since you are too far away from them come over and grab them by their necks.
Problem is, that we are inclined to do whatever possible to make this crap fit, instead of throwing this stuff back to the supplier and tell tem that we do not wish to spend our hard earned money on this kind of garbage quality material.
Should we as Norton owners become used to spending many hours to make parts fit ? the answer unfortunately is Yes.
AN certainly has a lot of explaining to do here.

These are the kinds of posts that will destroy the Norton hobby. We are very blessed with a supplier that is able to supply the best parts available for our old bikes and you want to get the pitchforks out? How about a nice civil discussion with a lot more details, like who exactly sold the parts to this customer...

Allow the vendors to comment and if needed, make things right.

How would you like it if everything you did was scrutinized with the same bias as your comment, right or wrong? I bet you'd like a chance to defend yourself.

So sit back and relax. We don't even have enough evidence to determine where the parts came from.
 

ZFD

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Our buyer Simon just drew my attention to the fact the invoice does not show a gearbox mainshaft., i.e. the critizised part. So where did that come from?
Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
 

MikeG

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My .02 worth-I know where these parts came from, and they are very reputable dealers. I also know the abilities of the original poster, and a Norton gearbox is a piece of cake compared to the stuff he works on for a living. I saw up close and personal how bad the main shaft was, and I honestly think it was a real POS. As one other poster pointed out, an unsuspecting person (me for example) might well have used that shaft thinking it will wear in just fine. Maybe it would, maybe not, but the consequences of it not could be expensive and painful. Hopefully it was just an anomaly and not indicative of what to expect all the time. Rather than look at this post as a flame job I think it's more of a reminder to ALWAYS check your replacement part against the original. :|
 
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I know concours also. He's in our regional club. I "loaned" him a new 04-0035 shaft which he has since replaced with sealed AN part.
Since not all parts are always in stock at a particular dealer you very often have to get them from multiple sources.

The invoice shown was for the BEARING in the pix (not the mainshaft).

The other thing to consider is the age of the sealed genuine Norton "factory" parts. I still have NOS in the bag BSA Regal and Shenstone parts.....
 

concours

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ZFD said:
Our buyer Simon just drew my attention to the fact the invoice does not show a gearbox mainshaft., i.e. the critizised part. So where did that come from?
Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
Rest assured, it came in a sealed bag, complete with the official AN card, (images will come later) the packing slip shown was from one vendor of AN parts, another order from another vendor of AN parts to fill my needed parts order. Remember the 11th hour comment? I had no time to wait for "the eternal backorder from hell" scenario, time marches on. :mrgreen:
I sent you a PM with details.
 

concours

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ZFD said:
Our buyer Simon just drew my attention to the fact the invoice does not show a gearbox mainshaft., i.e. the critizised part. So where did that come from?
Joe Seifert/Andover Norton
PM sent. :mrgreen:
 

concours

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swooshdave said:
Why is it ok to call out AN and not the dealers by name?

I chose that because the dealers "pass through" sell the AN parts, may feel unfairly mentioned (names changed to protect the innocent). HOWEVER, since ZFD asked where they came from in the public forum, I will provide this info as requested.
 
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