Single Amal Carb/Mk3 850

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Does anyone have an honest bhp figure for the MK3 850 in various carb guises?

Converted to a single Amal?

Reading previous posts reveals 35-38 bhp for a single Mikunui VM34...! This seems very low for an 850 twin!!

At the risk of stirring a hornet's nest, I'd like to know what the respective BHP figures are for the various carb options that don't involve mortgaiging your commando!

Many thanks
 
I don't know what the horsepower reading is for my bike. I have an 850 MKIII with a single VM 34 mm carb. I have read elsewhere on this forum that this combinataion yields only about 42 HP. I think that is probalbly about right when I compare the top speed up certain hills around here with other bikes I own. I know that my stock 1971 Bonneville is a bit faster than my 850. However the 850 feels really good. You don't really need more power than this bike has, even with a passenger. The low end torque is fantastic. The extra power probalbly only comes in over 5000 RPM. I hardly ever rev the engine that much. I am known by all my freinds as a fast rider. This bike uses less than 5 liters of gas for every 100 KM of riding.

I bought my single carb set up from a freind who had tried to use it on his race bike. It didn't work. It lacked top end power and everyone would pass him on the straigtaways. He said his bike was great at corner exits though. Really the single carb is a great set up for a street bike. The 850 has such great low end pulling power you don't really need the top end power.
 
At the 1992 INOA national rally we had a dyno there and tested dozens of 750 and 850 stock commandos. typical was 38 to 44 RWHP... and that was with dual carbs. The highest stock combat was mine @ 47 RWHP Of course hot rods made even more...several in the 50's . One got over 60 and none over 70 that I can remember....
 
Thanks Gents,

Dare I ask what's the highest bhp figure for folk here with a single carb on a MK3? While I appreciate it's probably the slowest Commando, I'd like to think I could get an honest 50bhp by being a bit selective about which single carb to bolt on, without touching the engine....?

Makes you wonder what a fine beast a Comabt 750 must have been back in the day... did anyone really get to the dizzy heights of 65bhp straight out of the box...?

Some folk here have done wonderous things!

Many thanks
 
If a good Commando motor with twin carbs seems to be getting around 45 rear wheel HP, I doubt very much that any single carb set up with same motor could get even that, as HP is derived at higher rpm, right where a single simply cannot "flow" as much as a twin.

So, no, I don't see how you could get 50 hp out of a single carb, more likely around 40.
 
Hmm, very interesting, thanks gents.

If 45bhp at the back wheel is the go for a good Commando with twin carbs, 60-65 back in the day was creative advertising? Come to think of it I can't remember where I read that!

Does anybody know how the a single Amal compares to a single Mikuni- are they better or worse in performance terms?

Also is anybody using a VM 36 or 38? I wonder how these are performance wise. In other words excepting that twin carbs = more performance, are all single carbs the same?

My VM 34 is great in every respect; probably the best money I've eve spent on the bike, but I'm just trying to work out if there's any way of getting some of the old pep back without going back to twin Amals?

Many thanks,
 
I've run a 36 on my '74 years ago, and when I got my MKIII it came with a 38. Neither was my choice, but they were both on the bikes when I got them. In my opinion, neither were as snappy as a well set-up 34 in the mid-range. I'm willing to trade off some of the top end charge to have the good points of the Mikuni. Obviously, this is a personal choice, and I'm not a concentric hater. Currently using a total of four of them (3 on Trident, 1 on Velo) on my other bikes. I've always liked the 34 Mikuni on the Commandos. I think, realistically, it matches my riding style, and what I want perfomance wise. It hardly makes them an old slug, as you already know. The only bad part about wanting to experiment with the bigger carbs, is that you need a new manifold and rubber mount to make the change. I would admit that I think the 36 had a pretty fair top end on my 74. I have no way of proving actual HP numbers, but it seemed a little better than a single 34. 38 didn't work well, so I found a home for it, and fitted a 34 on the MKIII, and it was much stronger in the mid-range. The only thing I've done differently than the Tech Digest settings was to raise the needle one notch - a five minute job! I think that was all it needed, and pulls really strong. Certainly not as strong as dual carbs in the upper RPM ranges, but I've got to be realistic, about the way I ride my Commandos. I'm not racing them, but I do like a fast blast running them up to 5-6k when the light turns green. Single 34 makes a pretty good accounting for itself in those conditions.

As my roomate proved in 1973 when he fitted a Dual Quad Offenhauser tunnel ram to his stock 383 Roadrunner, getting the right carb set up for your needs is important. Never could get that thing to run right, but it looked cool.
 
crusadersprorts, the factory quoted some 60 horsepower but that was measured at the crankshaft, and not at the rear wheel, where as we know from dyno tests is around 38-43 for a bone stock Commando. with the "Combat" version putting out a couple more horsepower due to its better breathing at higher rpm camshaft and higher compression.
 
crusadersports said:
Hmm, very interesting, thanks gents.

If 45bhp at the back wheel is the go for a good Commando with twin carbs, 60-65 back in the day was creative advertising? Come to think of it I can't remember where I read that!

Does anybody know how the a single Amal compares to a single Mikuni- are they better or worse in performance terms?

Also is anybody using a VM 36 or 38? I wonder how these are performance wise. In other words excepting that twin carbs = more performance, are all single carbs the same?

My VM 34 is great in every respect; probably the best money I've eve spent on the bike, but I'm just trying to work out if there's any way of getting some of the old pep back without going back to twin Amals?

Many thanks,

60-65 bhp was measured at the crank, and almost certainly using a specially built motor, probably running on alcohol fuel to allow a very high compression ratio. Factory figures for this reason are pretty meaningless, and were generated back then in a desperate attempt to keep pace with the Japanese.

There is no reason a single carb shouldnt work very well on a Norton, other than the fact that it seems difficult/impossible to fit a well designed intake manifold into the available space.

It is this that restricts the performance potential of a single carb set up, and while twin carbs will certainly provide more power on modified motors, a single carb on a properly designed manifold will be very good on mildly tuned stock machines.
 
Thanks so much gents, that's really interesting!

So if 60-65bhp is a crankshaft figure, admittedly based on a factory prepared engine that probably gives more that you or I would have got- does that mean that a third of the BHP is 'lost' through the gearbox and clutch/transmission??

Thanks Brithit for the info about your experiences with Mikuni single carbs. As you've tried VM34, 36 & 38, it sound like the VM34 is best for general use up to 5-6,000 rpm and if you want more, best go back to twin Amals?

I'm very aware some folk think that without spending alot of ££ on carbs, Amals are hard to beat- does anyone have any experience of running a single Concentric on a Commando?

This forum is great for this sort of shared experience. Makes me wonder how we got by before the www!

Many thanks,
 
crusadersports said:
Thanks so much gents, that's really interesting!

So if 60-65bhp is a crankshaft figure, admittedly based on a factory prepared engine that probably gives more that you or I would have got- does that mean that a third of the BHP is 'lost' through the gearbox and clutch/transmission??

Thanks Brithit for the info about your experiences with Mikuni single carbs. As you've tried VM34, 36 & 38, it sound like the VM34 is best for general use up to 5-6,000 rpm and if you want more, best go back to twin Amals?

I'm very aware some folk think that without spending alot of ££ on carbs, Amals are hard to beat- does anyone have any experience of running a single Concentric on a Commando?

This forum is great for this sort of shared experience. Makes me wonder how we got by before the www!

Many thanks,
I have run a single 34mm Amal Mark2. Poor lowend and no topend. These should NOT be regarded as an option. I have run a 36mm Mikuni on my 750 Combat with success. However, when I fitted a TM34mm Flatside Mikuni it gave me as close to a twin carb performance as imaginable. I did a cam change and other work last winter and found that NO single carb would or could feed this motor. Stock, however is another story. Look into and ask around about the flatside performance difference. This IS and should be regarded as a viable option
 
Fully agree with Prvisseriii,

I too had my motor completely rebuilt one year ago, and along with larger valves I had a Megacycle 5600 cam fitted.

I bolted on my, at that time, single Mikuni 34 and thought my bike ran just fine.

Then i bought a pair of Jim Schmidt's 32mm flatslides, and wow what a difference.

I now feel the flat slides complete my project and that continuing on with a single carb would have been an insult to the rest of the motor work. These carbs start first kick, idle like a rock, put out the low end grunt, and just keep flowing out the power in higher rpms.

Belt primary and 20 tooth countershaft, my opinion, perfect set up, especially with this motor and carbs.
 
crusadersports said:
Thanks so much gents, that's really interesting!

So if 60-65bhp is a crankshaft figure, admittedly based on a factory prepared engine that probably gives more that you or I would have got- does that mean that a third of the BHP is 'lost' through the gearbox and clutch/transmission??

Nope, face facts. The factory lied. As they all did, except for BMW who quoted honest dyno figures and paid the price in the marketing wars.
 
Thanks fullauto,

Which 'facts' are you suggesting Commando owners should face?

That 65bhp is unrealistic for a Combat measured at the crank- or 38bhp is unrealsitic for a MK3 measure at the rear wheel? Most folk here seem to suggest those are the facts we face?

Many thanks
 
I spend (too much) time reading old Cycle World and Cycle magazines from the 60s and 70s that I've had the fortune of keeping from new, or finding at garage sales, etc. Man, every ad back them not only posted HP figures, but quarter mile times as well. Even the lowliest 250 could "streak through the standing quarter mile at 13.8 seconds". The HP figures were equally optimistic. Just kind of the fun of a goofy era, I guess. Print anything, somebody will quote it as fact. At least Harley quit providing HP figures and only quoted torque. Might have deflated too many egos.
 
Brithit said:
I spend (too much) time reading old Cycle World and Cycle magazines from the 60s and 70s that I've had the fortune of keeping from new, or finding at garage sales, etc. Man, every ad back them not only posted HP figures, but quarter mile times as well. Even the lowliest 250 could "streak through the standing quarter mile at 13.8 seconds". The HP figures were equally optimistic. Just kind of the fun of a goofy era, I guess. Print anything, somebody will quote it as fact. At least Harley quit providing HP figures and only quoted torque. Might have deflated too many egos.


People dont grasp the simple fact that a factory prepared motor with 13:1 compression, race cam and running on alcohol fuel, may well have been capable of producing 1970s type "performance" figures, but that these figures are quite irrelevant in relation to real world performance.
 
Gee . After the factory road test , did they keep all the Dogs in England , and send the good ones overseas , Frank .
 
Thanks gents,

I think few would seriously deny that factory advertising then as today tended to be wildly optimistic- and Norton can't justly be singled out as the worst offenders here, as Fullauto suggests- they all did it, Brits, Japs and Yanks.

And yes Carbinfibre these figs are only loosely relevant to us today, left struggling on in the real world with the products of a long dead industry. Matt, yes I think alot of the better ones did go to the States because that was the only market where any real money was to be made! When I was 16 I had a Saturday job working at a place that restored Cdos and OIF Triumphs. He reimported all his stock from the US becuase it was cheaper to do so in 1990 than even think about buying them here. He told me they sold 10 in the states to every 1 they sold here. Fast forward 30 years and there is no such thing as UK spec anymore- it's Euro or US spec. To be fair, I suppose UK spec was inflicted on Continental Europe in those days :mrgreen:

But I was really asking about the difference between bhp quoted at the crank or quoted at the back wheel- and how much is typically lost in between. Once you have an idea of this variable, you're in a better position to appraise the differences between single and twin carbs- unless I have got the wrong end of the stick hewre completely.... :D

Love to hear from anyone who has tried a single MKI Concentric on a Cdo and especially if they have also tried a single Mikuni. Thanks chaps for your input- valued as always!
 
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