Seeking head ringer with Tricorder please

See if ya can take in the scope of this shop's idea of hot rod engine operation. Funny they sell piston with grooves.

The "internal combustion engine" is still being improved and new understandings seem to happen daily. The key to why we are still trying to figure the thing out is in the name, "Internal Combustion." You can't see it. Yes, there are ruby cylinders and windows that give us clues, but most instrumentation falls short when dealing with 9000-RPM 3Hp/per cubic inch detonating engines. In practical terms a theory is a useful way to account for what is going on when you don't have all the facts.
http://www.uempistons.com/features.php? ... ad&F_id=29

Picture of head damage on a BMW R60, these engines were very liable to ping, possibly due to choice of camshaft?

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f146/ ... f9396c.jpg


At least Nortons don't seem to ping too much, most BMWs running more than 9.5 CR seem to require twin plugs per head to stop pinging.

hobot said:

Old aircraft book states "in all cases best power made with slight detonation."

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What old aircraft book ?
Page number ?

130 octane avgas had a tremendous amount of lead in it, precisely to prevent detonation.
Detonation is death, repent now.....

Rohan if ya care squint at this google book, ya can find the statement and what they did about it to stay in air longer.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mCBJAQ ... wer&f=true

If ya ain't got it by now following the beaten path mostly bores me so out to see what I can get away with now and then. Do not mis repeat what I've said or my intentions please. I totally agree no detonation is the best for longest low or hi power operation, just not the highest state of tune for some engines that do get away with some detonation to get the job done. Trick is not blowing up so how does one monitor creeping up on it and no more? From what i've gleaned this week makes me wonder if our Nortons arn't often pinging some w/o us knowing it or the engine caring. But how would we even know unless to the amount it is leaving some damage evidence and that's too close for even me.

hobot said:

Rohan if ya care squint at this google book, ya can find the statement and what they did about it to stay in air longer.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mCBJAQ ... wer&f=true

If ya ain't got it by now following the beaten path mostly bores me so out to see what I can get away with now and then. Do not mis repeat what I've said or my intentions please. I totally agree no detonation is the best for longest low or hi power operation, just not the highest state of tune for some engines that do get away with some detonation to get the job done. Trick is not blowing up so how does one monitor creeping up on it and no more? From what i've gleaned this week makes me wonder if our Nortons arn't often pinging some w/o us knowing it or the engine caring. But how would we even know unless to the amount it is leaving some damage evidence and that's too close for even me.

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That google book was originally published in 1922, doubtless piston engine technology has moved on a tad since then.

I do agree that it might be that Norton engines suffer from High rev pinging, but that it would be difficult to hear above all the other Norton clatter at 5500 revs. But on the other hand there don't seem to be reports of pitting in pistons and heads that is an indicator of high speed pinging

Yep I did survey here and 2 other lists a couple yr ago for reports and conditions detonation detected but only got a few reports from those with obvious out of spec issues like coking or timing or bad fuel and a few racers that didn't blow up but had to diddle things some. Nortons are famously resistant to detonation it seems. I think Nortons run a handful of spark degree less than other BI engines which implies they are on the faster burn side which is also detonation resistant. Peel may be the only Norton-like engine to seek running hard up against constant slight detonation, like other 3 hp/cubic inch engines. I want under 10 sec 1/4 miles and over 160 mph in a hurry too so got to risk life limb and engine before I go.

Seems like Peel detector will have to be a hose fitting tacked to head with tube under helmet or fancy spectrum analyzer with sampling window and 'puter to filer and record changes that can't be heard or felt till too dam late. So far Peel has at least 5 anti-knock features w/o oil jets or Singh grooves.
How many can ya'll list?

hobot said:

If ya ain't got it by now following the beaten path mostly bores me so out to see what I can get away with now and then. Do not mis repeat what I've said or my intentions please. I totally agree no detonation is the best for longest low or hi power operation, just not the highest state of tune for some engines that do get away with some detonation to get the job done. Trick is not blowing up so how does one monitor creeping up on it and no more? From what i've gleaned this week makes me wonder if our Nortons arn't often pinging some w/o us knowing it or the engine caring. But how would we even know unless to the amount it is leaving some damage evidence and that's too close for even me.

Click to expand...

This is just bullshit, pure and simple.
No need to "mis repeat what you've said".
You've said it loud and clear....

And the few times I met some pinging, the engine wanted to go nowhere - so wasn't making any great gobs of extra power.
And the only time I met some more serous pinging, the engine wouldn't shut off when turned the key off.
Thats the precursor to melted pistons, in case you hadn't noticed. Was running like a dog to go with it.
We look forward to more stories of destruction and disaster.

Detonation = death, repent NOW !

A simple discussion of fuel-air tuning.
http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2006-06.html
Sorry about the HD content, finding this subject for Nortons drew a blank (!).

Note the bit about going 16:1 lean and misfiring and detonation and low power.
And about not going too rich, or losing mid-range torque.
Keep it in the 12:1 to 14:1 range, and all will be well ??

Nortons - later Nortons anyway - have nice flat topped pistons, which gives good combustion chamber shape.
Largely free from wedge-shaped slices that give detonation and pre-ignition problems like other makes have.
Someone mentioned nother thread here needing to twin plug BM heads to be problem free - they have big lumpy pistons....

Rohan If I wasn't worried about too much detonation I would not of posted on ways to try and detect it in noisy old Nortons. Much detonation on an engine not designed for it is bad juju so yes its BS for me and you and anyone with a normal ordinary Commando engine but Ms Peel may well have too at least in some intervals so learning what I can on this dangerous power zone. All motorcyler's are emotional immature and illogical to my logic & in denial if still riding so strangely unsettling to hear your nay saying safety advice.

Its long been known best power incurs some detonation and Master Challenge Engine run offs is good place to see what they get away with. Below is from 2004 and not going into the details other Master Challenge articles do. Tell these dudes they are BS and see if ya can stand reading these quotes =========================


Needless to say, because scoring is based on average output between 2,500 and 6,500 rpm rather than absolute peak numbers, builders concentrate more on the area under the curve than on making skinny spikes on the dyno chart. And to weed out the one trick ponies from the thoroughbreds, the top six qualifiers at any given point of competition are impounded so crews cannot perform maintenance. It truly is an endurance test of each motor as well as a display of engine building and tuning talent unlike any other

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... z2eMKYF0ly


No doubt, PHR rulemeister Scott Parkhurst figured the 92 octane bogeyman would be the ultimate determiner of what goes and what blows. And he was right. Detonation proved to be the numero uno obstacle to power, but those crafty Engine Masters managed to balance a tolerable level of rattle antics with insane power.
Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... z2eMBULmc1


Once the coolant and oil temperatures had finally reached the minimum values, DTS' Matt Boyer, the official dyno operator, subjected the raspy 12.77:1 Chevy to the three mandatory warm-up pulls where an audible detonation could be heard below 3,500 rpm before the roar of the engine drowned it out. Despite the rattling, power was good and the valvetrain seemed happy. During the 20 minute tuning period Jason said, "Detonation was a problem yesterday but thanks to the fog, now there is 10 percent more humidity and that's great for keeping detonation down." So he entered the dyno cell and decreased the 4150 Holley's high-speed air bleed size from 40 to 36 and added one degree of ignition timing for a total of 27 BTDC.

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... z2eMKqLgrX

Going in, team member Charles Williams said, "I don't have any big concerns about the engine and I'm not going to second guess myself. The motor ticked a little bit in qualifying from spark rattle and all we have left to play with today are timing and air bleeds. I hope we can put a little more timing in the motor without rattling it harder than it already does."

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... z2eMLolLle


During the warm-up pulls the motor knocked and rattled plenty but the team wasn't concerned--even with a staggeringly aggressive 35 BTDC ignition timing! Williams says Calico and Swain coatings are used extensively for protection. Still, it was easy to get the impression this motor was built specifically to survive massive amounts of detonation. After some minor air bleed adjustments during the tuning period, the moment of truth arrived.

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... z2eMM3lg4k


Despite scary levels of detonation, the big Chevy cranked out three nearly identical competition pulls. In fact, there was a mere 6/10 of one horsepower variation between the three pulls and it was virtually impossible to distinguish the three printed dyno curves from each other. Team MPG knew they were officially out of the running when the numbers were announced. The crazy-rattling Chevy had generated peak numbers of 667.8 hp and 596.7 lb.-ft., average numbers of 479.2 hp and 552 lb.-ft. and a total of 1,031.2 points to wrestle first place away from team PCC. All that was left to see was if last year's champion, Jon Kaase, could unseat W. Enterprises.

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... z2eMMLuafq

hobot said:

Its long been known best power incurs some detonation

Click to expand...

By who ??

Good engines tune out and eliminate detonation by good combustion chamber design.
Detonation is a sign it ain't all good....

Detonation is the enemy, run !
Detonation is death, repent now !

Ah man the death word is a lulu we all risk just getting in saddle and starting off. The way it may work in Peel is no det until heat soaks through. But if it soothes your nerves as much as mine Peel carriers her own humidity and extra octane and ignition curves to spare. i've a mechanics stethoscope i've put on car engines but not yet a Norton or my lawnmower. I hate to disturb Trixie's points timing but need to re-grease the AAU so might as well find out what mild ping sounds like ahead of time. Still can ya imagine getting it just right so nailing it detonates in pockets a few degrees past TDC, till rpm out races it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmeVvuLiiPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-dLjHJuFWQ

Hehe everyone loves the sound of a Norton, short of welding insides.
Looking up ways to sample sounds w/o a smartphone stumbled on bat call detectors to flash back on my 1st pensive days of hearing clinking ringing head sounds listening w/o throttle idling along trying to make sure the sounds were at least perfectly cyclic so normal by not skipping or adding beats like something loose bouncing with the suspension and engine. To my shock I started hearing added clics and chirps now and then so my heart sank to toes it was coming apart, then the click chrips came in at cheek level along with a bat! Bats dive bombed at the engine head and my head for 100's of yds at 10ish mph and pretty much matched the tones of the Norton. Bat calls range 12khz to 160 khz, so often in human range. This happened at least 4 x's over the years, as its just so 'pleasant' going so very slo so not to bust ass and Cdo on THE Gravel, again, last bats was on Trixie one got tangled in the yoke clutter of cables and hose til I spread to release on the fly, as essentially no throttle anyway. Always wonder if a fight or friend calls then found this which implies it was a hockystick CT+FM combo style of friendly social calls and maybe why they tended up in my face rather than at my jugular? If I could hear them that implies they were emitting parts below 15 khz which means the engine was acting as inversed hyterodyne bat caller with its doubling or secondary harmonic of the fundamental 7000ish pinging hz.

tag the sound files, any labled as either hockystick or social calls to hear those most similar to confuse a newbie. I'm daily at SuVee recovery and got dive bombed a few times while sanding in full daylight just to see what the scratching was I guess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_species_identification

Seems to me that, in theory, the optimum combustion delivers just the right pressure and speed to smoothly deliver as much motive energy into the piston as the piston and its rings can handle. It is dynamic, happens over time and the pressure rises and falls as the explosion accelerates, first the explosion is compressed by a space of decreasing volume (as the piston comes to TDC) and then continues into a space of increasing volume (as the piston moves away from TDC). Detonation in the midst of this is a wild card; in some circumstances it might happen to coincide somehow with the optimum, in most cases it likely won't.

I understand that one of the reasons that the latest small bore 4 valve offerings can run nominal 14:1 is that our current gas formulations, while low octane, are slow burn. Think of it as a "dieselish gas" that allows more burn down stroke right up to the moment of exhaust valve opening.

Well yes - sort of - The lower octane does not have much if any faster flame kernal or ignition front travel but does light off faster more thoroughly so if engine don't ping [much] low octane is more efficient power and mileage compared to excess octane above that. The ideal max pressure should develop when crank is 12 to 18' degree ATDC, depending on reference, with 14-15' the most quoted max brake torque pressure aim point. Ping pong bing bong BANG.

i have not tracked down the claim that automotive pump gas has a fast and a slow burning end to the hydrocarbon chains but its sure possible to point may take extra processing to produce molecules w/o a slow burn part as avgas was claimed to be in that article with official graphs on 3 levels of detonation. Its the combustible hydroxyl, OH- radical on end Ethylene two carbon chain that does the trick for us to get lit. Its one from of water that acts as an oxidizer electron donor in combustion while free'd H acts as fuel being reduced by accepting this electron, back to HOH which is an effective IR photon acceptor to stifle rays detonating far away and moves faster so adds pressure, there by giving us some E=MC2'd quantum energy conservation.

hobot said:

Well yes - sort of - The lower octane does not have much if any faster flame kernal or ignition front travel but does light off faster more thoroughly so if engine don't ping [much] low octane is more efficient power and mileage compared to excess octane above that. .

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In this neck of the woods, the high octane fuel gives considerably better power and fuel mileage - in fuel injected vehicles anyway.
Tintop drivers with sports engines say its much worth buying the higher grade fuel - the extra mileage pays for itself, and the performance is way better too...

This may not translate into anything for carburettor engines though, since the self monitoring efect just isn't there.