Retorquing the cylinder head?

Hobot · Sep 26, 2012

Yep ole baddad here givess references that fully annealed copper requires nearly 800'C which is rather orange'r than redder while the rest merely quote traditional hear say, thank goodness the forum been warned about me by the best experts word again.

L.A.B. · Sep 26, 2012

hobot said:
Yep ole baddad here givess references that fully annealed copper requires nearly 800'C which is rather orange'r than redder while the rest merely quote traditional hear say, thank goodness the forum been warned about me by the best experts word again.

It's unfortunate that you seem to have failed to grasp what "Bonsai" man was actually saying, that increasing the temperature speeds up the annealing process, however he doesn't say it increases the softness of the copper.

Copper melts at 1083C = 1356K so the annealing is done at greater than 678K = 405C = 761F. However, it will take a fairly long time at the lower end of the range so it is more common to anneal at about 700 to 800C.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5796817_anneal- ... ubing.html

Tips & Warnings

Do not continue heating the copper once it reaches the cherry red stage as you may burn the metal, turning it a yellow color and making it brittle.

Hobot · Sep 26, 2012

The time factor was not lost on me and brings up the associated issue of how long do you heat to adequately anneal copper gasket in redish range * if thin wire takes boringly long to anneal enough at lower temp. I've done em with small propane touch one section at a time and worked fine, if tedious but at least annealing can be done piecemeal as long as whole area concerned gets high enough temp long enough. The muffler shop got parts of 2" copper pipe fitting into yellow pink range and surprisingly the experimental merging of mild steel plate to copper by brazing held up in use on end of muffler but after cooled to handle in water and placed on bench to work on something else the threaded end became egg shaped and threads spacing distorted so was a bugger at home to beat on till could screw in aall the way. Was too heavy but proved the mod worked so next time will do in alloy. i can not seem to over heat copper by propane flame so common way to do em but the organer I got it the softer it handled. I've read some have gotten at least 8 annealing out of a gasket, poor things having to re-do that much but apparently worked or they'd not kept doing it so many times. if only they made better flamerings.

L.A.B. · Sep 26, 2012

hobot said:
The time factor was not lost on me and brings up the associated issue of how long do you heat to adequately anneal copper gasket in redish range * if thin wire takes boringly long to anneal enough at lower temp.

From experience it only seems to take a matter of a few seconds at cherry red, which may be more of a problem for Bonsai man regularly re-annealing lengths of wire, but hardly an issue as far as gaskets are concerned, I would think?

Hobot · Sep 26, 2012

Aw come on now, are you dodging my real off the wall practice of torquing to point of feeling the bolts or wrench stretch, then more till just can't w/o longer lever? Maybe common sealing agreement summed up this way. If gasket just even and flat and mate surfaces decent likely just stick it on w/o heating to seal as well as most of us can expect. Put in fiber back up and some metallic sealer for icing. If max annealing desired, such at to impress a sealing wire ring, heat as hot and long as ya dare. Al makes a nice soft gasket seal [think oil banjos] but tends to moosh into bores if cut too close so Norton dropped that good idea.

copper cpu cooler is melted down - colors to watch out for.

Bernhard · Sep 27, 2012

Re: Retorquing the cylinder head?ur

Dances with Shrapnel said:
Looks like Baghdad Bob from ministry of misinformation has struck again. Go with LAB advice- dull red and do not quench in water but let air cool. Quenching is taking you backwards- no surprise considering the source of that advice.
Retorque head after cool down of each heat cycle. Do not loosen first. Typicaly one ore two heat cycles with retorque should do it. You will reach a point where the fasteners will not torque any more and that is it.

Good luck with it and let us know how it goes.

Come now, copper is the only metal that I know of that Quenching is the annealing process, I have been doing it for years :!:

L.A.B. · Sep 27, 2012

Re: Retorquing the cylinder head?ur

Bernhard said:
Come now, copper is the only metal that I know of that Quenching is the annealing process, I have been doing it for years

Quenching copper is not part of the annealing process, quenched or allowed to cool, the end result is the same.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jSz11lz8MA[/video]

Hobot · Sep 27, 2012

Oh my an oxymoron with an oxy/acetyl flame going beyond merely red : )

Lookie at ~1:23 sec.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3jSz11lz8MA#t=92s[/video]

I make go gasket-less next time on Trixie Combat if the piston don't smack the quench rim.

L.A.B. · Sep 27, 2012

hobot said:
Oh my an oxymoron with an oxy/acetyl flame going beyond merely red : )

Lookie at ~1:23 sec.

Totally pathetic. :roll:

mikegray660 · Sep 27, 2012

L.A.B. said:
hobot said:

Oh my an oxymoron with an oxy/acetyl flame going beyond merely red : )

Lookie at ~1:23 sec.

Click to expand...

Totally pathetic. :roll:

i see moron in the sentence too..... :roll:

Dances with Shrapnel · Sep 27, 2012

hobot said:
Yep ole baddad here givess references that fully annealed copper requires nearly 800'C which is rather orange'r than redder while the rest merely quote traditional hear say, thank goodness the forum been warned about me by the best experts word again.

Ever hear of blister copper? Higher temps tempting fate with melt distortion and oxidation; try to avoid this with lower temps in my opinion.
My bad on the annealing as I confused quenching with ferrous metals.

drones76 · Sep 28, 2012

Besides all of the fruity discussions on this thread, there is a direct contradiction regarding the process of re-torquing the head bolts(which was the original topic). One person says to loosen them and then reset to proper torque, the other says not to loosen. Is there a documented proper procedure for this including heat cycles and whether it should be torqued while hot, warm or after cooling? And not just, "That is how I always done it". I am googling now.

I just put the head back on my bike and am getting ready to go through some heat cycles and re-torquing. I am not using a copper gasket.

Thanks.

comnoz · Sep 28, 2012

drones76 said:
Besides all of the fruity discussions on this thread, there is a direct contradiction regarding the process of re-torquing the head bolts(which was the original topic). One person says to loosen them and then reset to proper torque, the other says not to loosen. Is there a documented proper procedure for this including heat cycles and whether it should be torqued while hot, warm or after cooling? And not just, "That is how I always done it". I am googling now.

I just put the head back on my bike and am getting ready to go through some heat cycles and re-torquing. I am not using a copper gasket.

Thanks.

The engine needs to be cold for a retorque. You need to back the bolt off just enough to break it loose to get a good reading. The bolt will tend to stick in the threads and this sticktion will give a false high reading otherwise. Jim

Hobot · Sep 28, 2012

Drones , Cdo's are ole lawnmower like engine that only un-sure newbies or nerdy oldies bother with a T-wrench to seal head. If you want to hear the wrench click with some ball park significance, then back off before re-do, if ya just want sealing, just twist em tighter w/o back off first, if it even will, which is how I do mine now -to be warned off of. The important thing is the effective clamp force not how hard to twist to get that. If ya pull a stud out of the alloy then better at home than away I say. We've heard a lot of stories now warning of melting copper head gaskets and bubbling them up so beware there eh. The zig zag pattern of attack is worth while following manual sequence at least on initial nip ups.

These were made by dropping my melted head copper gaskets on a flat surface ...

worntorn · Sep 28, 2012

Im all for using a torque wrench or torque spanner to reduce human error. There is a reason that manufacturers build them and mechanics use them, just as there is a reason for the torque sequence.

On the subjest of torque values, A friend who does Vintage racing and is very good at wheel builds uses an expensive little spoke torque wrench. For rims and spokes to be at maximum strength, stiffness, the spoke tightness should be in the range of 80 to 100 inch pounds. This level of tension requires good rims, old rusty ones cannot handle it.

He has found that most wheels laced by others who use the guess method of tightness show just 20 to 25 pounds for average tightness and big variations spoke to spoke, hardly ideal.
Loose spokes cause spoke failures and rim failures.

Think Ill get one of those little spoke torque wrenches!

Glen

Snorton74 · Sep 28, 2012

I just settled a lawsuit with local Jiffy Lu--. They didn't use torque wrench for oil filter housing bolts, made it 6 blocks!!! First time my mechanic or myself didn't change the oil. Talk about instant karma!

comnoz · Sep 28, 2012

hobot said:
Drones , Cdo's are ole lawnmower like engine that only un-sure newbies or nerdy oldies bother with a T-wrench to seal head. If you want to hear the wrench click with some ball park significance, then back off before re-do, if ya just want sealing, just twist em tighter w/o back off first, if it even will, which is how I do mine now -to be warned off of. The important thing is the effective clamp force not how hard to twist to get that. If ya pull a stud out of the alloy then better at home than away I say. We've heard a lot of stories now warning of melting copper head gaskets and bubbling them up so beware there eh. The zig zag pattern of attack is worth while following manual sequence at least on initial nip ups.

I guess that makes me a nerdy oldie. Jim

worntorn · Sep 28, 2012

Well you are definitely not an unsure newbie

Hobot · Sep 28, 2012

I guess that makes me a nerdy oldie. Jim

Yes sir Jim in my now experienced opinion it does, but not being disrespectful, just impractical for practical sealing even by Norton factory practice. We've had a few reports of those like nerdy ole you using T-wrench to finally settle on like 5 lb more torque click than manual listed, forced into it by lack of sealing or holding clamp force otherwise. Many scientists are known for tossing out data points that don't fit their world view, like say Climate Warming, so I've had to adapt to my own rules to live with. I measure crank and rod bolt stretch for my pensiveness there but throw caution to the wind on everything else like my current avatar flavor.

comnoz · Sep 28, 2012

No problem, I don't mind being called a nerdy oldie. [proud of it in fact] I also go up 5 lbs from the spec in the manual. Jim

Retorquing the cylinder head?

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