Rethread the timing cover oil feed banjo
- Thread starter pierodn
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P.S. They are easy to identify - by the threadcount.
Using the coin as a size reference, even.
The threadform bizzo might take a shade longer.
I doubt it would be possible from a picture, although if you had a good sample of bolts....
When you compare Whitworth and BSF bolts in your hand, they are quite different threads systems,
one is a COARSE thread and one is a FINER thread and thus soooo different in the threads appearance.
And not one size will interchange with another....
So while it may be technically correct to say that BSF and Whitworth have the same threadform,
its a damn confusing way of doing it, especially if you are new to the ways of british engineering !!
Now, if it had just said Imperial threads, it may have been easier to digest - and swallow ??
Using the coin as a size reference, even.
The threadform bizzo might take a shade longer.
I doubt it would be possible from a picture, although if you had a good sample of bolts....
When you compare Whitworth and BSF bolts in your hand, they are quite different threads systems,
one is a COARSE thread and one is a FINER thread and thus soooo different in the threads appearance.
And not one size will interchange with another....
So while it may be technically correct to say that BSF and Whitworth have the same threadform,
its a damn confusing way of doing it, especially if you are new to the ways of british engineering !!
Now, if it had just said Imperial threads, it may have been easier to digest - and swallow ??
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Rohan said:
Still haven't quite grasped it, have you?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... CfRlIJ2iEg
British Standard BS 84:1956
"Parallel screw threads of Whitworth form"
Example:
12 tpi BSW (standard bolt)
Pitch: 0.08333"
Depth of thread: 0.0534"
12 tpi BSF (standard bolt)
Pitch: 0.08333"
Depth of thread: 0.0534"
Yes, but a 12 tpi whitworth is 1/2", and a 12 tpi bsf is 3/4"
Sure the threadform might be the same, and be a technically correct term,
but in your hand if that is not entirely obvious, and somewhat tricky to actually determine accurately,
its not worth a pinch of err snuff.
Threadcount is the elephant in the room here, and far more useful .
So LAB, you can't answer my question on the 3 setscrews above.
That soon sorts the men from the boys.
I did a stint with a crowd supplying bolts - to some very picky customers.
Anyone who can correctly answer that really knows their stuff.
So you would agree with this on Wiki then ? !!
https://s4.postimg.org/gdph0uqkd/BSW-_Wiki.jpg
That had me rolling on the floor....
The IP of the poster is there for all to see too.
Fortunately, it has since been corrected.
Sure the threadform might be the same, and be a technically correct term,
but in your hand if that is not entirely obvious, and somewhat tricky to actually determine accurately,
its not worth a pinch of err snuff.
Threadcount is the elephant in the room here, and far more useful .
So LAB, you can't answer my question on the 3 setscrews above.
That soon sorts the men from the boys.
I did a stint with a crowd supplying bolts - to some very picky customers.
Anyone who can correctly answer that really knows their stuff.
So you would agree with this on Wiki then ? !!
https://s4.postimg.org/gdph0uqkd/BSW-_Wiki.jpg
That had me rolling on the floor....
The IP of the poster is there for all to see too.
Fortunately, it has since been corrected.
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Rohan said:
Not might be = is. The difference in dimension doesn't come into it, as it's the thread form we are discussing. Assuming they are both the same thread form, if you were to cut them both in half and adjust the scale until they were equal size they would both have an identical 'profile' or thread form.
Rohan said:
I didn't answer because it's irrelevant. All you need to concern yourself with is:
http://www.thegauge.co.uk/technical-spe ... ad-gauges/
Basic Form Whitworth Thread
H = 0.960491p
h=2/3H= 0.640327p
H/6 = 0.160082p
r = 0.137329p
Rohan said:
British Standard Cycle isn't Whitworh thread form. I can't see any IP. If it's been corrected then what's there to beef about?
The same wording came from DynoDave to me, and was on his website. (Haven't checked lately to see.)
(He told me I was wrong !)
Which is where all this began...
Sure, threadform is a technically correct term.
But very obscure for most users.
(unless you make your own bolts on a lathe)
Given the myriad of thread SYSTEMS, surely its better to stick with them.
i posted a pic of an iron dommie head to the NOC chat group about ooh 20 years ago.
It listed the Whitworth, BSF, Cycle Thread, Metric and whatever those exhaust port threads are,
for starters.
Blanketing them all with Whitworth Threadform is just plain obscure and obfuscation.
Nor accurate, when you consider all Norton heads and all thread systems...
At least the OP Piero here got a BSF 5/16 x 22, not a whitworth threadform 5/16 x 22
Imagine where that could have gone....
Hopefully the man writing the book on Commando bolts got a few pointers too.
(He told me I was wrong !)
Which is where all this began...
Sure, threadform is a technically correct term.
But very obscure for most users.
(unless you make your own bolts on a lathe)
Given the myriad of thread SYSTEMS, surely its better to stick with them.
i posted a pic of an iron dommie head to the NOC chat group about ooh 20 years ago.
It listed the Whitworth, BSF, Cycle Thread, Metric and whatever those exhaust port threads are,
for starters.
Blanketing them all with Whitworth Threadform is just plain obscure and obfuscation.
Nor accurate, when you consider all Norton heads and all thread systems...
At least the OP Piero here got a BSF 5/16 x 22, not a whitworth threadform 5/16 x 22
Imagine where that could have gone....
Hopefully the man writing the book on Commando bolts got a few pointers too.
L.A.B. said:
Except for that wrongness on the Wiki entry !!
And Dave now doesn't even list anything for the iron heads on the nhtheads page.
If its not obscure, why haven't we been overwhelmed by answers to the 3 bolts threadforms.
Are they dazzled by the science, or baffled by the gibberish we wonder ??
Should be easy enough for anyone who knows their (obscure !?) bolt science...Rohan said:
Nortoniggy
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Rohan said:
Because nobody is interested in your pettiness.
It's summer. If you actually have a Norton, go out and ride it.
Ian
Can't ride all the time. (Or no-one would be on here !)
Some folks 'pettiness' is other folks technical detail.
And technical detail is what makes bikes go.
So, we still are waiting to see if anyone here has the expertise to sort out that puzzle,
or is that comment about obscurity/obfuscation too close to the mark.
If no-one here can solve it, I rest my case...
Cheers !
Some folks 'pettiness' is other folks technical detail.
And technical detail is what makes bikes go.
So, we still are waiting to see if anyone here has the expertise to sort out that puzzle,
or is that comment about obscurity/obfuscation too close to the mark.
If no-one here can solve it, I rest my case...
Cheers !
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Rohan said:
Identification of individual threads and threadforms wasn't the subject of the discussion, therefore, irrelevant.
Your case, that "BSF is not Whitworth at all, and never has been, nor is it considered to be." has already collapsed, in fact, I don't even think you are even in the right courtroom.
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In the early-mid 80s I already owned big complete sets of BA-CEI- and enough BSW and BSF to do the British chores. With the diagrams and charts taped up to the tool locker...which also included all 0-12 numbered, UNF UNC plus a fair amount of LH taps and dies...many UNS, and a whole slew of metric RH&LH, British and American pipe, taps and dies and one tap for the norton exhaust ports I made. . I never did a tally but it's a huge amount of money...
If any one cares or even knows what a small bolt pattern iron head is used on, all the threads except spark plug are cycle thread.
3 bolts
chances are the middle is 1/4 -20 whit or UNC..hex size might help, if standard manufacture.
Chances are bolts on the sides 1/4-26 maybe cei 60 for one and bsf 55 for the other. to start I'd lay a bottoming tap along side each to try and verify the thread form. If they were in my hand with mic's it would be very little challenge.
If not retired I would again bring it in the the machine shop and see the thread form angle on the optical comparitor (which I previously did many times)
I did a 3 week temp lateral job in metrology dept (calibration lab) where in spare time, I did 3 wire measurements of american and british threads, but I especially found it interesting to see the PD spread on the exhaust rose threads. This info, I have given out a few times. The written results are in the norton drawer in my file cabinet.
Again I'm retired (somewhat)... At work I was very often handed hardware where just by eye I would estimate the size and pitch american or metric. I was accurate a very high percentage of the time. My Dad was a machinist and I got started at machinery at a very early age...
Guess what.... I know and have known the difference between the W group and cycle.....for a long long time, way before I even owned a computer. I have never submitted anything to wiki... period, so what ever Rohan is accusing or crediting to me of posting (by IP of all things) is out right lie.
If any one cares or even knows what a small bolt pattern iron head is used on, all the threads except spark plug are cycle thread.
3 bolts
chances are the middle is 1/4 -20 whit or UNC..hex size might help, if standard manufacture.
Chances are bolts on the sides 1/4-26 maybe cei 60 for one and bsf 55 for the other. to start I'd lay a bottoming tap along side each to try and verify the thread form. If they were in my hand with mic's it would be very little challenge.
If not retired I would again bring it in the the machine shop and see the thread form angle on the optical comparitor (which I previously did many times)
I did a 3 week temp lateral job in metrology dept (calibration lab) where in spare time, I did 3 wire measurements of american and british threads, but I especially found it interesting to see the PD spread on the exhaust rose threads. This info, I have given out a few times. The written results are in the norton drawer in my file cabinet.
Again I'm retired (somewhat)... At work I was very often handed hardware where just by eye I would estimate the size and pitch american or metric. I was accurate a very high percentage of the time. My Dad was a machinist and I got started at machinery at a very early age...
Guess what.... I know and have known the difference between the W group and cycle.....for a long long time, way before I even owned a computer. I have never submitted anything to wiki... period, so what ever Rohan is accusing or crediting to me of posting (by IP of all things) is out right lie.
L.A.B. said:
In PRACTICAL terms, NOTHING of BSF is interchangeable with Whitworth. !!
So your lawyer is all at sea here.
While they may be machined up on a lathe/ auto nut maker etc using the same machinery, angle etc,
they are 2 QUITE DIFFERENT threading systems - one coarse threaded and one fine threaded.
Its only that being made on the same machinery/settings that makes them in the same family.
BTW, those spec sheets that you showed of the threadforms showing the same depth of thread was a little misleading, in some respects.
While that was true if the threads were the same tpi (threads per inch), that NEVER occurs with BSF and Whitworth on the same diam bolt.
So Whitworth ALWAYS has a deeper thread than BSF on the same diam.
And the table of drilling sizes for BSF and Whitworth quite clearly shows this.
Quoting "Whitworth" to a novice when they actually would require BSF is a not recommended practice,
I would suggest. While its all in the semantics, clarity of meaning is a wonderful gift...
dynodave said:
I never suggested any such thing. !
From your days as moderator of the Model 7 group, we knew you were a computer klutz !
You wouldn't even allow attached pics, and got all gnarly when I suggested it.
At least you went to thumbnails and reduced size pics on your heads page, like I suggested.
Thank you, that was a vast improvement.
(& I don't know where that particular IP actually points to, I didn't bother researching it)
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Rohan said:
NOBODY said anything about any BSF being interchangeable with BSW which only goes to show you are still missing the point.
Rohan said:
Once again, NOBODY is saying any of that which only proves you don't understand what a thread form is.
L.A.B. said:
The point IS that they are in the same family.
This is about as useful to someone looking for a bolt as your lawyer at sea with a handful of bolts he can't identify.
If you are going to machine up some heads - or some bolts, it is vital info. I will certainly agree with that, 100%
I'll also mention taking delivery of some bolts a while back, that caused a bit of a puzzle.
After some head scratching, we decided they were an imperial size machined up on a metric lathe,
of limited capability. It wasn't quite capable of being set correctly for imperial sizes, so they had improvised !
A mix-n-match set of imperial and metric !!
I'll also just mention in passing that in pre standardized days, folks like Indian and Harley and Triumph used their own thread standards ! So you have all 24 tpi, all 28 tpi and all 30 tpi standards. (Brit Cycle Thread is all 26 tpi)
That must have been so annoying for owners. Unless your local bike shop was handy, and well stocked with any bolts you were likely to need. All of them went over to standardized bolts before too long...
Cycle Thread persisted a bit longer....
After some head scratching, we decided they were an imperial size machined up on a metric lathe,
of limited capability. It wasn't quite capable of being set correctly for imperial sizes, so they had improvised !
A mix-n-match set of imperial and metric !!
I'll also just mention in passing that in pre standardized days, folks like Indian and Harley and Triumph used their own thread standards ! So you have all 24 tpi, all 28 tpi and all 30 tpi standards. (Brit Cycle Thread is all 26 tpi)
That must have been so annoying for owners. Unless your local bike shop was handy, and well stocked with any bolts you were likely to need. All of them went over to standardized bolts before too long...
Cycle Thread persisted a bit longer....
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