Repro PR on eBay - not real PR

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lcrken

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There's a very nice looking Commando Production Racer replica up on eBay right now, selling from Santa Fe, New Mexico. It's being advertised as a real PR, but it isn't.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NORVIL-N ... e83a#v4-30

I've emailed the sellor, so maybe he'll change his description. I got the impression he just doesn't know much about PRs. In any case, I just wanted to let any potential buyer know. If you're into PRs, you'd figure it out from the pictures.

It looks really nicely done, and probably a great cafe racer, but it's not an original PR.

Ken
 
How does one tell the difference? Are there some PR bits not present? Or is it a matter of the VIN?
 
This is the list I sent to the sellor.

1. The exhaust pipes are not correct PR pipes. The PR pipes were cut and welded at a slight angle where they exit the head, allowing the pipes to tuck in a little closer to the frame rails for cornering clearance. The difference is obvious, with the weld clearly visible on the PR pipes.

2. The foot controls are not original PR items. They are replicas, and not very close ones at that. The original PR brake lever was a cast steel piece, very different in appearance from the fabricated lever on your bike. The footpegs were knurled aluminum, not rubber.

3. The kickstart lever is not the original PR. The PR used a lever from an earlier model that had less bend at the gearbox end. It gave more room for the foot to reach the reversed shift lever. The knurled aluminum footpeg folded up for clearance.

4. The seat is not original. The original PR seat had the cover attached to the base with visible rivets at the rear. It also had a plain Dzus fastener at the rear, not the riveted-on plate style Dzus yours has. Yours looks like the repros Mick Hemmings used to sell.

5. The hand controls are not original PR. The clutch side is a stock Commando item, with stock Commando switchgear. The PR came with a steel Doherty clutch lever, and a small bar-mounted switch for the lights. The master cylinder is a later AP Lockheed with a plastic reservoir. The PR came with a on-piece master cylinder with a metal cap.

6. The muffler mounts are not correct. The original PR had a steel bracket that bolted on to the muffler, and was mounted to the foot control mounting plates by two rubber mounts. Yours has what look like stock Commando mounting plates, connected to the the foot control plates with one rubber mount.

7. The intake manifolds are not correct PR parts, but stock Commando pieces. The PR came with manifolds fabricated from steel tubing and plates, not the cast aluminum ones you have.

8. The front fender is not an original PR. The original was much narrower. It was also held on with hose clamps around the fork legs, not bolted to the legs, as yours is.

9. At least one of the fork legs is not original, but an aftermarket piece. The PR only cam with a single Norvil disk, not duals. Norton sold an optional kit for dual disks, but it used the same fork leg, so that when installed, you had the caliper in front of the leg on one side, and behind it on the other. It was kind of weird looking, but that’s how Norton sold it.

10. Front brake lines are braided stainless, which is not original. Original brake hose was black plastic-covered.

11. I can’t tell for sure from the pictures, but it looks like the rear brake plate is not a PR item. The PR had cooling holes in it, covered with metal mesh. The backing plate was black, and the mesh sections and their mounting plates were aluminum color.

12. The tail light and license plate mount are not PR parts, but reproductions. The tail light mount is pretty close, but is made for the larger, later model, tail light, which it has. The PR had the earlier, smaller tail light. The license plate bracket is not even similar.

13. The front fairing bracket is not original PR. It looks like the one Mick Hemmings used to sell with his repro fairings.


Ken
 
Wow. That's not just one little thing that could have been swapped, it's a litany that pretty well seals that it is a repro. I've never seen one up close and personal, but many of those details, such as the steel-tube intake manifolds would have stood out.
 
hi there , may be you know this site , that guy owns several real PR .....
http://www.jamiewaters.com/motorcycles.html
I had somewhere the numbres of the PR , should make a research , (was in a Classic Bike), those numbers are between June 1970 and something in 1971, and was confirmed by Norman White....the numbers on the above yellow norton should at least be in that range........
 
If the seller does not change the auction description someone should alert ebay and get the auction pulled.
 
marinatlas said:
hi there , may be you know this site , that guy owns several real PR .....
http://www.jamiewaters.com/motorcycles.html
I had somewhere the numbres of the PR , should make a research , (was in a Classic Bike), those numbers are between June 1970 and something in 1971, and was confirmed by Norman White....the numbers on the above yellow norton should at least be in that range........


Thank you for that web site!! I just spent over 30 mins in it and I'll be back.
 
@ Ken and marinatlas: thanks for your very interesting information and links. Highly appreciated !

Here's another one:

Repro PR on eBay - not real PR



(I'm not sure if the lighting of the racing numberplates is "original" ) :wink:
 
L.A.B. said:
Going by the two silver rings on each shock, I think it may be fitted with "Dot" shocks (maybe with the words "Dot" removed or covered over)?

Repro PR on eBay - not real PR

Repro PR on eBay - not real PR



As I doubt the genuine PRs had "Dot" shocks originally (please enlighten me if they did!) because I can't remember seeing Dot shocks offered for sale until the late 80's or 90s?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DOT-Rear-Shocks-T ... 31002r9503

I can't believe LAB didn't post the images correctly. :wink:
 
swooshdave said:
I can't believe LAB didn't post the images correctly. :wink:

But I didn't intend to post them as images only as links? :roll:
 
I found this gallery of pictures of what I believe to be one of the most complete original late Production Racers I have ever seen. What is really nice is all the disassembly pictures :wink: !
Notice the headsteady! (And I know PR's did not have Boyer Ignition!)

broken link removed

And of course the one Ron Fraturelli sold
broken link removed
 
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Ron L said:
I found this gallery of pictures of what I believe to be one of the most complete original late Production Racers I have ever seen. What is really nice is all the disassembly pictures :wink: !
Notice the headsteady! (And I know PR's did not have Boyer Ignition!)

broken link removed

And of course the one Ron Fraturelli sold
broken link removed

I wouldn't accept a Proddy as original without a lot more documentation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I wouldn't accept a Proddy as original without a lot more documentation.

I agree. I guess what I should have said is if you look closely at the teardown photos, there is a lot of detail that you don't find in most PR replicas. For instance, the correct rear fender, the pre-Commando kicker, knurled pegs, correct seat, the funky isolastic head steady, the VIN tag on the backbone.
 
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