Replace fuel taps or not?

From new,the left tap ("reserve" side, I assume)was mounted with the lever inboard. Right side was outboard.

It never bothered me until a couple years ago when the lever broke off the plastic valve body. Still didn't bother me so much, because by then I never rode far enough to worry about running out on the right.

Then, the right side lever broke off. This was about one year ago. Got on internet to buy rebuild parts; discovered no such animals. This really pissed me off, as the valves are obviously made to be taken apart and repaired as needed. Anyway, I didn't like the looks of any of the replacements (at the time). So I removed the plastic plugs and cut a slot straight down into the shaft about 1/8" deep. This let me use a small straight screwdriver to turn them as needed.

Now, having read every post regarding taps, petcocks, fuel valves, etc. on this site, I decided that if I am going to ride past the mailbox I need reserve. And to turn the inside/out reserve with a screwdriver I have to remove the tank. So,..... got to turn that tap outward.

Laid the tank upside down on padded bench, put (1/2" I think) wrench on flats (very tight fit) and tried to back out tap (I do know that righty-tighty, lefty-loosey thing) and it would not move.

Re-read earlier post about tight taps, decided to man up, put cheater on wrench, and it rounded off the flats! Still no counter/anti clockwise movement.

So I grabbed a 24 inch adjustable wrench, fitted it to the body of the valve, and cranked it around to face outboard. Scared the crap out of me. It was extremely hard to turn all the way - no sign of loosening up. And once it was around, there was no sign of any threads rising up out of the tank fitting. So I don't know what is going on. I haven't had a chance to check it for leaks yet.

Here is the tap turned around:


As you can see, it seats flush to that reddish whateveritis that looks molded into the tank.

BTW, this is a fiberglass tank, never sealed, never gasahol.

If it doesn't leak now, I can use it for how I ride. I don't need to be able to switch while moving.

Questions are:

1. Would you leave it like this (assuming it doesn't leak)?
2. If you are going to replace them, just how up would you man? I really don't want to rip the bottom out of that tank!
3. If you replace them, and if they ultimately screw out without destroying the tank, and if you use BAPs, could you cut that on/off plate off the BAP, just keeping the washer portion to preserve the original look a bit better? I am assuming the BAPs come apart about like the EW: circlip holding in spring-loaded plug, pair of washers, etc.

If they won't turn out, cut them out.

Cut them off right above the bung,

then saw thru the threaded part carefully not hitting the tank threads. Do this in 2 or 3 spots.

Use a 7/16" drill to open them up to the bung threads, (this action might loosen and remove the remaining piece),

This will weaken the tap threads and then you can use a chisel and punch to knock out pieces.

It will help if you have access to a bung tap (1/4-19 BSP) to clean the threads before fitting the new taps.

New ones
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Triumph-Bonnevi ... 5056246%26

same thing happened to my originals (dropped it on the floor and the plastic snapped) i got these ones to replace them
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-UK-Made ... f3&vxp=mtr
they have the correct look and finish, i took them apart everything is brass inside, nice quality, and every interaction i've had with BCF cycle has been great.

If you open the BAP taps, they are nothing like the EW taps. If I'd seen these taps mentioned in the last few posts, I'd have gotten them rather than the BAP, although I really can't complain about the BAP, except for the looks.





Dave
69S

When I changed the taps in my fiberglass tank last year the same thing occured. Very hard to move at first. The PO had used a sealer with the taps in. New taps from Rabers, new sealer and all is well. You are kind of committed now. Just give it a go.

DogT

Thanks, those two pics are exactly what I have been looking for. I assume the lower pic is of the "made in UK" tap that Kevbo82 provided the link for?

One question: does it take an o-ring in that groove in the brass plug? Other than that groove (and metal vs plastic plug) it looks to be identical to my originals. And I assume there is a circlip that holds it all together, same 1/4 BP top threads, etc.

Incidentally, the inside construction of that BAP astounds me! It looks like alcohol was involved in the design. I'm thinking some guy said to himself "OK, I'm going to design a new type valve. And it's not going to be anything like those old gate valves, globe valves, ball valves, plug valves (tapered or straight), reed valves, whatever. It's gonna have these little passages winding in and out of the core, and a big fat rubber gasket-thing ".

No wonder they don't leak. I'm surprised the fuel makes it to the carbs after all that twisting and turning.

On another note, but still talking taps:

There is a post - I forget by whom - where a guy made himself new plugs out of teflon. I guess he turned it down in a lathe to fit. There was some question as to whether this would work long term, but there were no later reports. This caught my attention, as I purely hate replacing something that should be easily fixed. If I still had a lathe I would be making plugs, not moaning over lack of parts.

However, I have been thinking about trying to cast some plugs. I've been casting bullets for years, and casting aluminum or zinc is no harder. Make a mold using fine investment clay of the plug body, fab a brass stem and cast it in place when you pour the plug. Lap the plug into the valve body, and ?????

Oh well, if I try it, and it works, I'll report back here. In the meantime, I'm ordering the UK taps.

The BAP internals are the same as what's been on Jap bikes for 50 years... work great, don't leak. Those were probably a copy of some other design, it'll take someone older than I to bring that out though.

I think the shots dog t put up are the old EW ones? Here's an old post where I took a shot of the guts of the ones bcf cycle sells

petcock-smut-family-friendly-t13954.html

Brad,
The first picture is the BAP I got from OB I think, but they are available lots of places. The second pic is the original EW tap out of my 69. The BAP taps slow the fuel flow plenty, but seems to be enough for the Amals, I haven't had any fuel starvation.

Yes there's a circlip that holds the taper and springs together in the EW tap. I actually took some grinding paste and an electric drill and tried to match them so they didn't leak through so bad, and it worked pretty good. I got some new viton 0 rings for them and they work pretty good. Only thing I don't like about the originals, there is no lock nut, nor space for one so there is no way to have them pointed correctly. Looks like the newer ones have the longer thread for the tank and a locknut. Make sure you use a flat washer and the stat-o-seal together.

You should really take what ever taps you have and test them on the tank overnight for leaks. A piece of paper towel under the closed tap will show any leakage. I drained a whole tank through the carbs when I put things together first time. Luckily I had avgas in it and it evaporated from the bowls, not into the engine. You really don't want leaky taps, it's inviting a fire.

You also need to check the needles in your float bowls to make sure they don't leak through. You can take the bowls off, fasten them to a flat plate, and run a line to the fuel input and check them for leaks too. That's another invitation for fires.

I got these from Clubman, not impressed with them, but supposedly they are good for ethanol and they look sort of original and not expensive.



Here's how to test your float bowls.



Dave
69S

DogT

Thanks for clearing that up. What had me thinking that the lower pic was new/replacement tap was brass plug. I just sort of assumed that they (Norton) would not go from brass plugs in '69 to plastic in '72, but guess this is another example of the factory saving every penny they could.

The clubman repro is not as good looking as the "made in UK, original finish" taps, but the price is a lot better. I would certainly think they are ethanol-proof, as they appear to be all metal. I don't run ethanol/gas as I have a fiberglass tank (unsealed) and am paranoid about screwing it up. With the exception of the first few years of ownership I have religiously removed and drained tank and carbs after every use. Best thing I might say about the plastic plugs is that they never leaked.

I recently re-furbed my amals with kits from OB. Went through Bushman's tips, and farted with setting the float heights for hours. I did not get the stay-up floats - got the old-style plastic ones. Probably should have got stay-ups as I understand you can bend the tabs to set height instead of driving out the needle seat (which I did), and resetting. I did get the viton tipped needles, however, which was the reason I decided to re-check float heights. Glad I did, as they were both set very high/rich (above lip of bowl), one more so than the other. At any rate, all seems good now, runs and idles well.

If/when I have them off again I'll set up like your pic and adjust using avgas like you did. Clamping/bolting them under a nice flat plate (with gaskets in place) should help hold the pins in the grooves (I have not staked them in place as some suggest).

I'm still trying to get my courage up to try more force on unscrewing the old ones. Cutting them off/out is probably the safest route - even thought it sounds more drastic - because at least I would not be running the risk of ripping the inserts/bungs/whatever out of the bottom of my tank. If I decide to go that route I'll for sure get the proper tap (1/4" BP) first to clean threads afterwards, or in the worst case, to make NEW threads in the new inserts I'll have to glass into the bottom of my tank.

Part of me is thinking this is one of those "if it ain't broke, fix it till it is" situations. But now that I have asked for advice I feel compelled to do something about the problem.

The Clubman taps are most certainly Taiwanese repros. If you look carefully, you can see the rubber insert in the body, so no, they are not all metal. I haven't tried them yet. I too use avgas, but I haven't been draining it, at least this winter, but I have a fuel hose that all I have to do is remove the line from the bottom of the tap and drain it into the can. It's plenty easy. Yes get the 'no sink' floats, it's much easier. I also got the hard anodized slides and that made a big difference with the idle, but for all the money I spent, I think I'd go for a re-sleeve. My carbs are still very critical as to temperature and idle setting, but they run good.

You might try some heat to remove the taps. I'm pretty sure there is a metal insert in the F/G tank for the taps. It may be someone has put some sealer or gasket material in them. They were notorious for leaking through the threads.

Dave
69S

I think you are right in that they were sealed in some way by someone. Had to have been the dealer, though, as I bought it new, no mileage. But you can see that both were screwed into the tank bosses as far as they would go. The collar cast in the valve body below the flats is flush to the reddish whateveritis on both sides - no threads showing at all.

I'm afraid that if I heat the valve body ( cast zinc alloy, probably) it might expand and temporarily tighten even more. Then again, it might loosen whatever they used to seal them. Only the Shadow knows!

My fuel tap issue is finally (I think) solved.

Checked out the ebay listing that kevbo82 sent me to, and ordered new taps from bcf cycle - the "made in UK" ones. Got them in about a week. Spent two weeks getting up my courage to put a bigger wrench on the originals. Was incentivized a bit when one of my original plastic stems crumbled when turning it with a screwdriver.

The first one was so tight in the tank I bent the body of the valve a bit getting it out. But, out it came. Now I'm committed. The second was not quite so bad; came out OK.

Installed the new taps with teflon tape (the yellow kind) AND the washers provided. Put fuel in tank, no leaks. So I'm good to go.

Suddenly noticed, what the crap? One lever points to the rear, and one points to the front when taps closed! Did I put them on the wrong sides? No, if I switch them I'll still have the same problem.

Spent the next week or so telling myself it doesn't matter. Nobody that sees the bike would know the difference anyway. Etc., etc. At least both levers point down when open, it's OK, nothing to see here.

Made me crazy.

So,............

Pulled the left one off, pulled the core (tapered brass, with tiny,tiny O-ring), and cut/filed 90 more degrees out of the the opposite side of the valve sleeve so the lever will turn back as well as forward.





While doing this I noticed NO teflon tape survived the install, so reinstalled with blue goop and both washers. Re-installed the other side with goop also. Fuel, leak test, no leaks!



Now I'm happy.

Huh? Aren't there nuts that you can use to point the taps in what ever direction you want? I thought only the originals ended up where you didn't want them.

Dave
69S

Dave,
Yes, the locknuts let you set both levers outboard (or inboard, if you wish) or wherever - unlike the original Ewerts that just you just screwed in until tight, and lived with what you got.

But my issue was that, with taps set so levers were outboard both sides, and taps in closed position, one lever was towards the front of the bike, and the other was towards the rear. This affected absolutely nothing in the function, but I didn't like it. Now, when taps are in closed position both levers are swung to the rear.

I know this is a sort of "too much time on your hands, and not much to do" thing; and I know Hillary said "at this point in time, what difference does it make?". But to me, it was kind of like having the tach and speedo reversed in position, or the high beam indicator on the left and neutral indicator on the right. It just didn't look right to me. So, in the spirit of "if it ain't broke, fix it till it is", I fixed it.

Well, Brad I admire your spirit and hope those dohickies work out for you.

But I have a box full of petcocks from assorted vendors that I've collected over the years and they all leaked and/or left shavings of rubber in the fuel. Been using BAP taps for 2-3 years now and I'm not looking back.

maylar said:

Well, Brad I admire your spirit and hope those dohickies work out for you.

But I have a box full of petcocks from assorted vendors that I've collected over the years and they all leaked and/or left shavings of rubber in the fuel. Been using BAP taps for 2-3 years now and I'm not looking back.

Click to expand...

+1

I'm not sure if there is a set that is a mirror image so the lever points the same way on both sides or not. But there are plenty of options out there, and lots of them are quite expensive, I saw some recently that weren't so dear and even looked somewhat like the EW taps. I'm using the BAP, but have some EW lookalike I got from Clubman pretty cheap, but hey have rubber insides, I'm not sure they will last. I'm not thrilled with the delivery rate of the BAP, but I haven't had any problems with them. I don't much like the way they look.

Thing is you want to make sure they don't drip or all that fuel may find its way into the engine. I drained a whole tank of avgas once, but luckily it just evaporated out of the carb bowls.

Dave
69S

Well, I admit that the reason I decided on the taps from bcf cycle was:
a. They come closer to the EW in looks than any other I have seen. A little too shiny and "pebbly" in finish, but...... close.
b. The BAP tap is butt-ugly.

They were somewhat pricy, but not compared to the billet taps available.

Since I never leave fuel in the tank overnight I may not live long enough to know if the new taps are really fuel-resistant or not.