Regarding a steel tank; a simple question

Jeandr said:

Diablouph said:

There have been many threads about ethanol and fibreglass tanks. Many about poor quality metal tanks from overseas. Rust seems to be a problem in stock tanks.

Has anyone built tanks from carbon fibre?

Would it solve the ethanol problem, the rust problem, and maybe the poor quality problem as well?

I have no dog in this fight as I have a stock roadster tank in good condition which I love (well, let’s say I have a strong affection to it).

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Carbon fibre will not help IF the resin used is the same as the one used for fibreglass. The regular polyester resins are sensitive to ethanol, the epoxy resins less so. Take a look here http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/lof ... 22697.html some good info and a somewhat bleak future for all types of tanks with fuel containing ethanol due to its hygroscopic nature.

Jean

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I may or may not have participated in that thread on Trials Central. :mrgreen:

I am way beyond my level of expertise on this subject, though it has rarely stopped me before. Wouldn’t carbon fiber set in an autoclave resist the corrosive effects of the additives? After all, they use the stuff in missiles, ever for the rocket nozzles.

Greetings,
It would seem that some sort of plastic (literally like a plastic gas can) coating could be applied. Of course that may require the use of rotational molding equipment, and the job to be done before the paint goes on.
Or an aftermarket company could produce a complete plastic tank with a hard plastic color impregnated shell, like some Buell models.
Or how about an aluminum tank with a fiberglass outside.
Just as soon as I'm rich and have time on my hands like the rest of you guys I'm going to start making some of this stuff.
GB

geo46er said:

Just as soon as I'm rich and have time on my hands like the rest of you guys I'm going to start making some of this stuff.

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Not rich, just out of work, if time is money, then OK, I'm rich :wink:

Jean

geo46er said:

Greetings,
It would seem that some sort of plastic (literally like a plastic gas can) coating could be applied. Of course that may require the use of rotational molding equipment, and the job to be done before the paint goes on.
Or an aftermarket company could produce a complete plastic tank with a hard plastic color impregnated shell, like some Buell models.
Or how about an aluminum tank with a fiberglass outside.
Just as soon as I'm rich and have time on my hands like the rest of you guys I'm going to start making some of this stuff.
GB

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Actually a better solution may be a rubber bladder.

Don't get too paranoid about the fiberglass tanks. Mine has worked just fine for 8 yrs and more. Sometimes it gets a few welts on it and sometimes it feels a bit soft on the inside, but it doesn't leak and I see no ill effects from it's continued use. I thought about coating it but as has been stated here that stuff eventually disappears too. In the old days they used shellac which works quite well as a sealer. I would switch to a steel tank or aluminum but I will not pay the ridiculous prices they go for. One might just as well buy a complete bike. I asked in a seperate post if anyone had done the research to find an appropriate doner tank from a Japanese bike . After all, there is nothing great about the look of the Norton tank.

aceaceca said:

Don't get too paranoid about the fiberglass tanks. Mine has worked just fine for 8 yrs and more. Sometimes it gets a few welts on it and sometimes it feels a bit soft on the inside

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:shock:

aceaceca said:

After all, there is nothing great about the look of the Norton tank.

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BAN HIM!


:mrgreen:

BillT said:

Ethanol is very popular with refiners for a couple of reasons.
1) in the US ethanol is heavily subsidized, and costs refiners about half of what gasoline costs
2) ethanol has an octane rating of about 130, so adding 10% ethanol to low octane gas raises the octane rating nearly 5 points

This means that refiners can take 82-89 octane gas and bump it up to regular to premium for less than 90% of what it would cost to actually make premium grade gas.

The fact that ethanol is a very strong solvent and can have disastrous effects on any motor vehicle made before 1985 or so in North America is beside the point. Nobody actually drives a '65 Ford Mustang, BSA Spitfire, or pre-1973 Norton, do they?

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I've read of reports that it's not uncommon for pump gas to have a lot more than 10% ethanol. After all, they do have a fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders.
http://www.cspnet.com/ME2/Audiences/dir ... 1210664401

Isn't the reason they banned the glass tanks in the UK because they split when you got in a wreck?

We are not alone in this problem. A friend who has a Ducati monster is having trouble with the plastic tank expanding to the point that his handle bars now touch at full turn, and the area around the cap is closing up. We met another guy with the same. Duck says it's mostly happening in California. I thought glass Ang plastic tanks were outlawed for street use here?

If his plastic tank is expanding, its because the venting system is clogged...

swooshdave said:

aceaceca said:

Don't get too paranoid about the fiberglass tanks. Mine has worked just fine for 8 yrs and more. Sometimes it gets a few welts on it and sometimes it feels a bit soft on the inside

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:shock:

aceaceca said:

After all, there is nothing great about the look of the Norton tank.

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BAN HIM!


:mrgreen:

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lol... i like the roadster tank a lot

Because of the vicious statements made recently about Roadster tanks, Norvesta, my Roadster tank, refuses to log on to this forum until a full apology is given.

I spent half the night holding a sobbing tank. I hate to think what the salt water is doing to her insides.

bpatton said:

Isn't the reason they banned the glass tanks in the UK because they split when you got in a wreck?

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This is also the reason why fiberglass and plastic tanks are not legal for many bikes in the US. Metal is seen as a safer container for fuel, as it is less likely to split in an impact. On the other side, some could say fiberglass is safer in an impact because it won't spark as it slides down the road.

In the US, there are federal safety regulations (OSHA) that require metal fuel containers in any construction job. In addition, these metal containers must be color-coded to denote the flammable contents (Red for Gasoline, Yellow for Diesel, Blue for Kerosene, etc).

gtsun said:

We are not alone in this problem. A friend who has a Ducati monster is having trouble with the plastic tank expanding to the point that his handle bars now touch at full turn, and the area around the cap is closing up. We met another guy with the same. Duck says it's mostly happening in California. I thought glass and plastic tanks were outlawed for street use here?

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Fiberglass and plastic tanks are legal for small manufacturers, as long as these tanks are legal in the manufacturer's home market. I believe the cut-off is 10,000 units of total sales. With regard to venting issues, California Ducatis are fitted with an activated charcoal canister that connects to the tank vent, and a second vent line to allow air into the tank. I believe both of these lines have check valves to prevent fuel spillage in the event of a tip-over, and venting of fuel vapors directly to the atmosphere. The charcoal line only allows venting out of the tank, and the other line only allows venting into the tank. It is not uncommon for these check valves to stick, causing some tanks to swell as the vapor pressure inside increases (like when a bike is left out in the sun). It is also fairly common for bikes with metal tanks to have the tanks collapse overnight in the garage (especially in places like California, where you can park your bike in the garage with a warm tank, and at 6 the following morning, that garage is 50F.

With my Speed Triple (2006 with factory plastic tank), it was common for service techs to switch the vent lines on the tank, as these lines were unmarked and looked identical. If this happened, the tank would not vent properly and the tank would develop a slight vacuum, making the fuel pump work harder and making the gas cap hard to open. Triumphs don't show swelling or caving in because the tank top is a sort of double wall, with a painted fiberglass shell over the plastic tank. Most of the Speed Triple owners I know have marked these vent lines so they don't get switched. I'm not sure, but I think the Ducati problem can be either a stuck check valve or swapped line. I'm not saying to do it, as it violates EPA rules, but removing the check valve allows the tank to vent directly to the atmosphere, with little chance of clogging.

So what? I'd give a left side manifold NUT (!) to the manufacturer who simply provides a tank molded out of the same red plastic as the fuel containers you can buy at any store. How cool to get a 1/4" thick Norton tank made out of fuel impregnable plastic?!

JEEZ, H. Christ!
I mean, the fuel that goes into my lawnmower is stored in a red plastic can that DOES NOT DETERIORATE from the 10% blend!!!!!!!!!!

You'd think some of these manufacturing 'wiz-kids' would figure that out. Hell, they could even mold them with gloss black plastic... wouldn't THAT be a treat? I'd rather buy the plastic than steel, anyways... sigh...

OK... for now... vent over.
Jeez, but I'm sick of the damned tank problems...

Gary, you may have something. It's my understanding that the way gas cans are manufactured is by injecting plastic into a mold. The plastic fits the shape of the mold. Why can't we do that right into our tanks? In fact, why not into fiberglass tanks? After the injection, drill out the fuel lines, cut out the gas cap, Fittings all in place, ready to go.

Thanks for the info about the Duck plastic tank vent BillT. I will pass it to my friend and perhaps he can resolve it. I am having a old F/Glass production racer tank sealed by a friend with a industrial tank sealer made from Poly Sulfide and reduced to be sloshable. Has worked for him on metal tanks for many years but this is our first try with a glass tank. It has to be cured at 77 degrees for two weeks and stays flexible so it won"t crack which I think has been the cause of failure with other products that would otherwise work. Fingers crossed but it still may only last a few years.

Diablouph said:

Gary, you may have something. It's my understanding that the way gas cans are manufactured is by injecting plastic into a mold. The plastic fits the shape of the mold. Why can't we do that right into our tanks? In fact, why not into fiberglass tanks? After the injection, drill out the fuel lines, cut out the gas cap, Fittings all in place, ready to go.

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I'm actually working on this issue. That is, trying to line the interior of my father's Interstate tank with fuel impervious plastic. If it works, I'll be posting a LOT of pics, as I see this as a DIY fix **FAR** better than any of these idiots selling the internal sealers that simply continue to fail. And which one of us would not be happy to fix his damned tank himself?

And if it works... wow, I might, for a brief moment, become the most 'beloved' Norton owner on Earth for that one moment in time, LOLOLOL's!!!!!!

~Gary

But, seriously... they mold the steel into shape... so simply manufacturing a mold to take poured plastic... what? That mold might cost a 'whopping' few hundred dollars to make. Big deal, no 'real' overhead.

Then to sell the beautiful gloss black tanks at $100.00 a pop, a $150.00... talk about making a serious profit!

I don't know about you guys, but I would be HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY to have the plastic tank! It'd have the lightweight characteristics of fiberglass (but weigh even much less), it wouldn't 'spark' if the bike's laid down.

And I bet you they could pour the damned things with UV inhibitors in the plastic, too!

Besides... plastic can always be buffed to a better shine after, say, 10 years of being in the sun.

Any mold technicians here want to get together with me on this? :shock:

Gary said:

But, seriously... they mold the steel into shape... so simply manufacturing a mold to take poured plastic... what? That mold might cost a 'whopping' few hundred dollars to make. Big deal, no 'real' overhead.

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Why don't you ask a tool and die guy what they really cost. I think you'll find out what "whopping" really means.

As mentionned in another thread, why not just gut the fiberglass Fastback tank and build a steel shell under it? Doesn't need to be pretty, just liquid tight and have the fittings at the right place. Of course there would be a little less capacity, but the chances of a steel tank being eaten by weird gas would be the same as 99% of the vehicules on the road.

Jean