Rebuild or Replace Lockheed Brakes

Picked up a 1976 850 Commando MK 111 Electric start with less than 1500 original miles. I have stripped it down completely. Bagged and tagged the parts like a crime scene, took lots of photos, powder coated. Now it is time to rebuild and upgrade. Are the upgraded brake systems that much better than the original ? If so what type. Thanks

Only a couple owners I know so far have red hot nail poked out the factory restrictor valve hole to get distinctly more lever to tire patch grip ability so suggest you try that first before you eventaully get talked into the wonderful upgrades that allow easier tire squeal and lock up so only the traction and stoppies limit slowing. Best wishes testing brake capacity. If RGM still sells their race level that's another squeal effort helper as is SS or new factory hose.

I'm going to try Hobot's red hot nail poke out restrictor valve idea for my new MK 111 proj. simply because it's interesting and I believe the product liability time- frame has expired sufficiently to attempt such a thing , null and voiding any warranty terms should they exist after 40 years. Nothing to lose exept unexpected screeching tire lockup front and back. If it doesn't work then pull out the credit card once again. :|

were is this restrictor located? any pictures

Get to work Steve , :wink: peoples are a' ask'in.

I have Madass140's easy fit kit in my race bike using the original master cylinder and the original Lockheed caliper with upgraded hoses and after market disc pads, works very good under all conditions, I have an RGM kit in my Roadster (2nd bike)master cylinder, although a little more technical to fit than the Madass unit, it also has the upgraded hoses and pads and is equal to the task for pulling up the bike under all road going conditions and here in NZ there are plenty of winding roads to test any brakes under load.
I have a friend who has an after market master cylinder, caliper and disc on his Commando, ( I think Grimeca)he has ridden mine and is suprised how good the front brake is compared to his expensive unit.
If you want to keep the looks close to original, go with either kit.
Regards Mike

I've got a standard disc, upgraded HEL (black) hoses, overhauled caliper with stainless pistons and a 12mm Brembo M/C. Absolutely no complaints with the braking and it keeps the standard front end look look.

I rebuilt the original caliper which was in good condition with all new stainless steel components from RGM. As i wanted the stock look the stainless steel brake hose is black coated for same reason and RGM sleeved down the master cylinder. The pads are EBC not one of the cheaper makes an great care was taken to bleed system. The results are RUBBISH!
I am keeping the master cylinder and fitting larger disc and caliper. I did hope the brakes would be up to it but they never gave me any confidence an once or twice really let me down with lack of power.
i don't ride slowly as a rule and don't use brakes excessively but my advice is upgrade.

When you are in modern fast moving heavy traffic you don't want brake that where acknowledged even 40 years ago to be marginal at best. Everything else will have far better brakes than you even 10 or 15 year old cheap cars all have ABS an well stop faster than you.

An to those who may say you don't need brakes to go fast then why do racing bikes and cars spend large amounts on exotic mega powerful brake systems.

Steve speak up. I have a 13 mm Yamahaha system to pump up smaller but more intense pressures but my next MK 111 build will be stock lookings for sure so interested 4 sure.

The restrictor valve is just called a valve in exploded part book picture. The pin hole in the end of big black rubber booty piece deep in the bore. hobot hot nail can only be applied to factory state master cylinder none of the sleeved bores or other master cylinders upgrad have any restriction orifice at all. No risk mod but be alert on first hard grip testing it. Can't just leave booty out as it also a spacer for return spring tension. Its worked well enough on its own on my factory '72 Trixie I am still pissed about believing so so many claiming they like 100 size best to finally try on Trixie to get seriously less stopping grip. Also pissed after hot nail this 100 size front is the ONLY front tire size out of 3 mc's over 15 yr that is wearing a freaking flat center instead of V shaped sides on all 110 and 120 [SV650] tires as part of my signature leaning too far over habit. Nail mod does not change hydraulic ratio effort but boy howdy it make that same effort 1/3 more effective at tire patch. Upgrade kits are still great idea just not really all Norton is all. In real life need its way more problematic to over power tire and have to back off to re-grip with less panic force than just grab it as fear motivates ya and ease off some as speed bleeds to keep tire squealing not lock squeeching out from under. The better a cycle grips and handles the less brakes needed going fast and deadly but still needed often enough.

Will try , report back in a year.

toppy said:

I rebuilt the original caliper which was in good condition with all new stainless steel components from RGM. As i wanted the stock look the stainless steel brake hose is black coated for same reason and RGM sleeved down the master cylinder. The pads are EBC not one of the cheaper makes an great care was taken to bleed system. The results are RUBBISH!
I am keeping the master cylinder and fitting larger disc and caliper. I did hope the brakes would be up to it but they never gave me any confidence an once or twice really let me down with lack of power.
i don't ride slowly as a rule and don't use brakes excessively but my advice is upgrade.

When you are in modern fast moving heavy traffic you don't want brake that where acknowledged even 40 years ago to be marginal at best. Everything else will have far better brakes than you even 10 or 15 year old cheap cars all have ABS an well stop faster than you.

An to those who may say you don't need brakes to go fast then why do racing bikes and cars spend large amounts on exotic mega powerful brake systems.

Click to expand...

I did all the same mods on my 850, although the first pads I used were EMGO, all sourced from RGM. I couldn't agree that the brake was rubbish (some specific issue, perhaps?) - maybe compared to a twin four-pot Brembo radial caliper setup, but it's subjective I suppose. For the most part I thought it was pretty good, but I felt it could be better 2-up, so I upgraded to a Lockheed racing caliper and RGM floating disc.
A great setup, and totally up to snuff.
I then rebuilt a Combat 750, with the same setup as I originally had on my 850 using the spare Norton caliper, but I replaced the pads with Ferodo (Federal Mogul), and the brake was just fine.
There was maybe a 10% difference which I put down to the disc diameter, but with the Ferodo pads fitted it was good enough, and looked 100% original apart from the braided hose.
I never felt a need to change it, and I do like riding hard on occasion.

I'd say that a re-sleeved standard master cylinder works great, and the standard caliper can also work well, but it's a bit hampered by a limited choice of pads - one advantage of the Racing caliper.
Better brakes are available for more money, especially if you're after modern sportsbike braking, but the stock setup can be made to work.

hobot said:

The restrictor valve is just called a valve in exploded part book picture. The pin hole in the end of big black rubber booty piece deep in the bore. .

Click to expand...

from the old brits website is this the bad boy?
1 061944 Master Cylinder Trap Valve

Andy perhaps rubbish is a bits harsh but when you need some stopping power the front is lacking an will in no way trouble the front tyre as some riders say.
I once had a Yamaha 600cc Diversion which has very similar weight power speed riding position etc to a Commando. It also has single front disc an simple two piston caliper an even though that Yam was a worn out ride every day in all weather hack it brake (worn out disc rusty pistons an old rubber hose) was far better than my Commando.

I do think a change of pads may help but choice is limited and if you put your finger next to disc when you squeeze hard on lever you can feel the caliper flex. This is only a tiny amount but it show effort is being wasted. So I have a 13 inch floating disc an after Christmas will be getting an AP Racing CP3697.

yep item 11 p/n 161944 valve. Glad to learn its full decriptive name. I tried drilling and filing it bigger but darn rubber just tore up ugly or reclosed hole, so having new kit items on hand > tried red hot 6 penny nail to feel I had Royal relatives looking after me. There is no measuring needed just opened enough so it no longer a restriction mimicking drum brake blacksmith effort. I really think it was a legal concern the first year with Norton fearing more suits from injured pilots. When the opposite of 'need for speed' *hits* w/o planning on unpredictable surface conditions - I'l take the factory level panic grip ratio any day over upgraded modern dual discs with 25 to 27:1 advantage. Almost every brake test done of pilots with and w/o ABS the pure skilled pilots could stop a bit better but not nearly as safely as ABS in panic of the moment. Truely if you want more slow down capacity fit biggest softest compound lowish aired front tire rather than too easy over powering kit unleass very trained routinely in sharp pull downs out the blue reflexes, which to me now feels like grabbing a red hot rod so I can't just grab it very hard on first reflex any more or spikes of pain shoot from hand to me groin. Still no matter how great the grip and squeeze power bikes are poor stoppers so my first reflex deeply programed by road fate is to steer away from worse impact hazard to somewhere more survivalable.

850dunstall said:

hobot said:

The restrictor valve is just called a valve in exploded part book picture. The pin hole in the end of big black rubber booty piece deep in the bore. .

Click to expand...

from the old brits website is this the bad boy?
1 061944 Master Cylinder Trap Valve

Click to expand...

Yep, #11 on http://www.oldbritts.com/1973_g22.html

B+Bogus said:

toppy said:

I rebuilt the original caliper which was in good condition with all new stainless steel components from RGM. As i wanted the stock look the stainless steel brake hose is black coated for same reason and RGM sleeved down the master cylinder. The pads are EBC not one of the cheaper makes an great care was taken to bleed system. The results are RUBBISH!

Click to expand...

I did all the same mods on my 850, although the first pads I used were EMGO, all sourced from RGM. I couldn't agree that the brake was rubbish (some specific issue, perhaps?)

Click to expand...

I'm also curious as to what problems you had with that setup, as mine's basically the same. I went the aftermarket 12mm M/C, stainless line, rebuilt slave (with stock pistons), and Ferodo pads. Yes, it's not as light-touch as the twin-discs out there, but it's way better than stock, and it will bark the front tire with an aggressive two-finger pull. Granted, it can potentially overheat with repeated heavy applications, but that hasn't yet raised its ugly head with any severity with my style of riding, and I don't let it rest much. Some details of your bad experience would help to clear the air.

Nathan

The stock brake on my 1975 Commando was good for one hard stop. It was adequate until I took the bike into the mountains. Riding hard in the mountains it failed completely by overheating on a downhill section requiring three hard pulldowns from about 70 MPH to 20mph(switchbacks). A 1948 Vincent that I was attempting to keep up with had no braking issues in the same spot the Norton brake gave up. I very nearly ran into the back of him. The other choice was an 800 foot drop.
The Norton was fitted with the "right" pads from Vintage brake. The fellow at Vintage brake promised that the Ferodo pads would make the brake "scary powerful" It was scary all right, but not because of it's power!

People may tell you that reducing the Master cylinder size will cure the Commando disc, but all that does is make the brake lever easier to squeeze. It does nothing for the overheating problem, which is due to the tiny pad size of the stock brake.
So if you are content with a front brake that underperforms a motorcycle built in 1948, keep the stock brake. If you want better, look at either the Madass single 320 mm disc six pot (wonderful brake) or the CNW Brembo, also said to be excellent according to reports here.

Glen

I had 2 occasions of heat fade loss of Trixie's brake after a rebuild and later a DOT3 fluid change that shocked the shit out of me, but only happened after a few max pull downs so tip toed back home and tied lever back and tapped/vibed system from caliper to bars so the micro bubble layer bled out over night for impossible to over heat to fade as hard as I'll ever dare to need. Before Ire bled em I could nail brake for full control about 3-4 x's before squeezing didn't work no more then cooled down is about a min to need 3-4 hard use to occur again. Much as I claim to shun brakes, braking confident is my sole measure of how lucky I feel before strafing runs is seeing if I'm good and brave enough to panic level brake to noise and/or lock up a few forced repeated times to remind me how soft squid like our brains are to be cycler's.

I think it is all covered . It matters how hard you drive, where you drive and how much weight is atop the bike.
For me the sleeved down master, ground disc and SS hoses have made a nice improvement.
But I weigh little, keep to the speed limits and generally don't hot dog.
If you go fast, push hard in the hills and are up a few pounds on me, then look toward a modern front system.

It was to spread more heat that both wide tires and dual disc brake developed not over all better traction or short stopping than narrow tire or single disc, just they melt sooner and then fade in function, so can get away with extremes if spaced apart to cool down enough before next heating applied. btw best way to break in brakes is to immediately start hard pull downs to beyond maxium expected real life heat but not let the tire lock up to weld/gall surfaces. Sleeve 12 mm, larger thinner band rotor with multi small pad caliper and better leverage handle can't be beat just not Norton and rather expensive. Unless over heating issue then an extra rotor just adds more spun and unsprung mass to delay ya but looks better symmetric.