Quantal Cosworth Norton

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SteveA said:
You are seeking the reason why Norton could not get the Challenge to meet it's potential, but you don't seem to accept that funding and management was a significant issue, and I am also saying that, in context, even if they did it would not have been the world beater they sought....Roberts had the equipment, support and skill to beat anything they might have done....

I'm not denying that in the slightest, although I didn't utter one word in that direction.
I merely posed the question - what was done mechanically to produce such a vast improvement later on.

If I had known that Cosworth had produced so many engines that were later idle, would/should have chased one up - always fancied a road bike with a water cooled twin.
But then a Nemesis sounded interesting/plausible too...

P,S. Lots of bikes have had outboard disks ?
Didn't Ducati have some ?
I thought that looked like a solution looking for a problem. Although it may keep some heat away from the tires ?

Tell us more about this Mr Sutherland.
 

Chris

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Hi Rohan

This link from 1983 shows Rob Sewell on the bike at Knockhill in Scotland.
Facinating for me, not just because of the bikes but because the race is being run backwards!!!! ie reverse direction.
The Cosworth is shown at 2.05 but you dont get to hear it on its own.

Chris
 

Chris

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A couple of photos

Remember mechanical antidive?





Chris

ps the full story of Ians exploits were in Classic Racer. Unfortunately I have had my loft insulated & now have every mag I ever purchased stacked 5 feet long by 4 foot high by 2ft wide in my garage! Dont want to get rid of them but I might have too. :(
It seems you cant board over the new style insulation as it sweats!!!!
Chris
 
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Thanks for those pics.
Link ?
Mechanical anti-dive is a new one on me, must have been looking the other way when that was around.
Its evident from this whole thread that the Cosworth twin had more of a race history than was first evident.

Be good if we could send magazines somewhere, and they would be scanned and put online.
Hmmm, libraries are scanning their newspaper collections, wonder if they got some donated bike magazines - hmmmm ???
Spose copywrite would be an issue....
 
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What is the thing just in front of and above the rear brake master cylinder ?
Sticking into the riders right leg...

Looks like fuel pump, or proportioning valve, or or or ?

 
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" The relevance is F750 was dominated by the TZ750 and its derivatives. The Yamaha factory funded their efforts sufficiently and put together teams with excellent riders, tuners and mechanics......Roberts and Carruthers to name but two..."

The TZ750 was at one stage banned from F750 as it was outside the ' manufactureors showcase for PRODUCTION based machines .

However so many pillocks had bought the latest craze that the finaciall commitment there & with the race Meeting organizers led to
the change in direction , or highjacking of the original class . At that stage the AMA & FIM wernt on the same planet . The acceptance
by the AMA not initially being recognised by the FIM.
However , in collusion , the Regs were altered , leaveing the PRRODUCTION ROAD MACHINES , includeing the TR750s out developed as raceing machines .

Usualcommercial skulldugery .
 

SteveA

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Rohan said:
What is the thing just in front of and above the rear brake master cylinder ?
Sticking into the riders right leg...

Looks like fuel pump, or proportioning valve, or or or ?

The bike is fuel injected, so I had assumed that was the fuel pump. No fancy stuff on the brakes apart from the mech anti dive links.
 
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Doesn't look to be much room under that 'tank' / cover for the inlet trumpets to breathe ?
Beware the rider if opened out to allow to breathe.... !!

Dare I say it - Lucas fuel injection ?
 
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Re: Quantal Cosworth Norton
by SteveA » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:32 am

And there are Spanish, and Spanish oh and a few Spaniards, and who is it who owns both MotoGP and WSBK...oh that would be the Spanish then....World Championship with 4 rounds in Spain...I don't thinks so, OBTW, racing is in growth in Spain!

and 3 rounds in the US....
 

SteveA

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swiss32 said:
Re: Quantal Cosworth Norton
by SteveA » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:32 am

And there are Spanish, and Spanish oh and a few Spaniards, and who is it who owns both MotoGP and WSBK...oh that would be the Spanish then....World Championship with 4 rounds in Spain...I don't thinks so, OBTW, racing is in growth in Spain!

and 3 rounds in the US....

True, a first in 2013, we will see how that holds up in 2014! Two countries accounting for 7 races, or you could say US and the Iberian peninsular accounting for 8 rounds!

But by comparison from same sources:

Spain, total population under 50Million, GDP per capita $32K
US, total population just under 314Million, GDP per capita $48K

US supporting 3 seems more balanced than Spain supporting 4...

One each for the following except Italy who cheats by calling one the San Marino GP! just like F1 does in France with Monaco.....

UK, total population just over 66Million, GDP per capita $39K
Germany, total population just under 82Million, GDP per capita $44K
France, total population around 65.5Million, GDP per capita $42K
Italy, total population just under 61Million, GDP per capita $36K


But then again....we will soon see if the whole house of Dorna is on a slippery slope having bought into WSBK...before you read this it is interesting to note that in the '90s WSK use to host 120K fans at the far from flat Brands Hatch, it's biggest event which no longer hosts any world championship race....

'Despite the fact that the World Superbike series kicks off on Sunday (actually now last Sunday in Australia), the provisional calendar is still very much in a state of flux. Rumors emanating from the WSBK paddock, gathered at Phillip Island for the 2013 season opener, suggest that major changes could stilll take place to the calendar. The biggest change is that the UK round, set for Silverstone on 4th August, could be dropped altogether, and replaced with a round in Turkey, at the spectacular Istanbul Park Circuit in mid-September.

The rumors, reported by German-language website Speedweek and confirmed by other WSBK sources, state that Silverstone is to be dropped because the circuit cannot afford to pay the sanctioning fee previously agreed with Infront, and now being demanded by Dorna. Crowd numbers at Silverstone for World Superbikes were always low, in part because the flat nature of the circuit made viewing difficult, and in part due to relatively high ticket prices, which meant that ticket sales did not generate sufficient revenue to cover the circuit's costs.

The round scheduled for Silverstone could now take place at Istanbul Park in Turkey. The circuit, once run by F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone, is under new management since Ecclestone withdrew at the end of last year, and is in need of events to host at the $200 million dollar facility. While the new management is negotiating with Ecclestone over a return of Formula One, adding a World Superbikes round would be logical, given that Turkey has a reigning champion in the World Supersport class in Kenan Sofuoglu, and a candidate to repeat in 2013. Acording to Speedweek, the Turkish round of WSBK could be held on 15th September.

The rest of the calendar is also far from finalized. The round scheduled for 23rd June and marked as "to be announced" is now certain to be dropped, with the Brno circuit already having confirmed that they will not host a round of the series. Both Imola and Portimao are still marked as being subject to contract, and given the economic situation in both Italy and Portugal, still under severe doubt. The Portimao circuit continues to teeter on the brink of bankruptcy, while doubts remain over the future of Imola.

The disappearance of Silverstone reduces the Superstock season - run at European rounds only, to keep the series cheap - to just 8 races. With both Superstock 1000 and 600 classes set to be scrapped for 2014, several riders and teams are taking a look at the rival series being set up in Central Europe, and based around the Brno circuit.

The problems at Silverstone highlight a key concern at the center of the business of hosting motorcycle racing. Crowd attendances at motorcycle racing have been historically good, and as tobacco advertising was still allowed at motor sport events, the circuits had extra ways of generating revenues. But a combination of the ending of the loophole which allowed tobacco sponsorship, the decline in attendance as the sport became more clinical and professional, and the global economic collapse in 2008 meant that circuits started to struggle to pay the sanctioning fees charged by both Dorna and Infront (or FGSport, as it was then called) to organize MotoGP and World Superbike rounds. The iconic WSBK round at Brands Hatch was one of the first casualties, the circuit being dropped from the WSBK calendar in 2009, after a dispute between the Flamminis and the MSVR, who run the circuit, over the level of fees to be charged.

The situation has grown worse since then. Several circuits, both on the WSBK and MotoGP calendars, continue to complain of the cost of hosting rounds, with several rounds under threat as a result. The Sachsenring circuit has struggled to pay the sanctioning fee for the German round of MotoGP for several years now, and is subject to constant negotiation with local government over subsidies. Despite its history and the existence of a contract, the Jerez round of MotoGP has been in doubt for the past three years. Even the iconic Assen circuit has struggled to pay the fee required by Dorna, and is looking at ways of increasing crowds and building revenues again.

The problem is very much a chicken-and-egg situation: to recoup the sanctioning fees, the circuits need to set ticket pricing at an uncomfortably high level. But those higher prices are keeping some fans away, who simply cannot afford it. Finding the right balance between ticket prices and attendance number is extremely complex, and not entirely under the control of the circuits. That the demand for racing is there is certain: at the Estoril round of MotoGP last year, the circuit - knowing it would be losing MotoGP - set its prices at extremely low levels - between 2 and 20 euros, in comparison to 90 euros and upwards for most other circuits. They filled the circuit, something which had not happened for many years at Estoril, which has traditionally had poor attendance. However, the revenues generated with such a low ticket price are simply not enough to cover costs.

Getting out of this precarious situation will be difficult. For Dorna, the way forward may not lie in continually raising sanctioning fees for both motorcycle racing series. Instead, they may have to try and capitalize on the intangible assets, raising income from sponsors by selling higher crowd attendances, and generating higher crowd attendances by lowering ticket prices. But with Dorna under pressure from their owners, Bridgepoint and the Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board, to generate income to pay off the loans which the private equity firm has burdened it with, the Spanish company has little room for maneuver.'


Of course an answer might be more crowd pleasers like Classic racers and BOTT! and the return of Quantel.....:wink:
 
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Quoted from an article by David Emmett, in case anyone was wondering.
http://motomatters.com/news/2013/02/22/ ... l_to_.html

Quoting average incomes per capita is not a particularly useful yardstick !?
What would be more useful is how many motorcycles per capita are sold - or what percent of incomes is spent on motorcycles per country.
Or what % of the population are motorcycle enthusiasts. ?
The Spanish and Italians are noticeably motorcycle crazy, it must be said.
And the USA is a big market, if more a fringe element there.....
 

SteveA

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Rohan said:
Quoted from an article by David Emmett, in case anyone was wondering.
http://motomatters.com/news/2013/02/22/ ... l_to_.html

Quoting average incomes per capita is not a particularly useful yardstick !?
What would be more useful is how many motorcycles per capita are sold - or what percent of incomes is spent on motorcycles per country.
Or what % of the population are motorcycle enthusiasts. ?
The Spanish and Italians are noticeably motorcycle crazy, it must be said.
And the USA is a big market, if more a fringe element there.....

All True Rohan....agreed....including the credit to the author between my ' '.....but GDP is not gross income, as far as I know, not being an economist, I understood it simplly as a measure of 'wealth', but I take your point....'it don't matter how much money you got if you don't spend any on motorcycle related products'...

The US is a big market due to sheer numbers, there are lots of ya!...meaning no, per capita you don't spend anywhere near on two wheeled things that the Spaniards and Italians do....but you have the potential to absorb more, particularly high value, products anyway....Good marketing to be present in force and too big a country for the selected track to be relatively near you....hope 3 races works from that perspective BTW...

I work in Italy, definatly a lot of bikes, and a lot of scooters that are just to get to work....but its a way of life...the Spanish are just bike racing crazy, and they will spend money going to the races....but right now they have huge unemployment and other problems....seems to me that MotoGP needs to develop outside Spain, and to do that it needs to be less Spanish to please other fans, giving a chance to see a 'local boy done good'....

Throwing WSBK in the pot with MotoGP was not in the best interest of sport, and as with most mergers expect some rationalisation.....

We have strayed from the Quantel effort a bit......

But what I am seeing here in the UK is reduced interest in world championships, particualtly MotoGP, due to Spanish Dominance in some part, meaning there are only 3 Brits in it, and it is unlikely they will get a crack at the best bikes (even if two are riding the 'best or the rest') and on the other hand increased 'interest' from promoters and fans, in 'capitalising on nostalgia'....classic racing if you will....maybe that would also be an environment for some more 'higher level' BOTT, who knows.....we know it can be lower budget than either WSBK or MotoGP!

Struggling to get back on topic here :D
 
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Bob Graves, a director of Cosworth, found the engines when searching through a store room. He purchased what was left and sent it to his home in Surrey where he had a private workshop and a considerable collection of automobilia exotica.

Bob Graves engaged three people to work on the project, Guy Pearson, John Baldwin and Gary Flood. The former two were skilled fabricators of stainless sheet alloys and aluminium, while Gary was a would be MX rider cum road racer. Guy and John had at one time worked for Surtees F1, and all three had combined to produce the Exactweld 250 two stroke racer on which Gary Noel would eventually win the European Championship.
The following is what Gary Flood told me regarding the detail that went into making the Quantel Cosworth a top performer.

Guy and John devised a fabricated chassis that attached to the front and top of the engine, with a fabricated swing arm and a mono shock mounted above the engine.
The engine was re worked in considerable detail. Without detailing the work done in any sort of chronological order, the following were things that had to be addressed.

The gear on the end of the crankshaft would slip. Kieth Duckworth suggested chrome plating the inside of the gear to give a certain interference fit, and once this was done no more slipping occurred. There was also a problem with a quill shaft fracturing at certain low engine speeds. Duckworth again came up with a fix which involved a change in both material and shaft diameter. Flood eventually re balanced the engine to a different balance factor.

Initial attempts to run a fuel injection system were disastrous, best described by Gary Flood as impossible to map to be suitable for track use, and likened it to an on/off system - with no in between !
Amal 40mm Concentric Mk 2 carburettors were fitted to get some power output figures, and worked reasonably well, but the original design provided a poor down draft angle for the intake duct owing to the original requirement being that the engine should be also suitable for road useage.
The team modified the intake to create a greatly increased down draft, thus making fuel injection a necessity. Kieth Duckworth had a system built up by Cosworth technicians that proved to be totally satisfactory in terms of power delivery and throttle control.

Cam profiles were originally lifted straight from the Cosworth DVA engine, with valve lifts and durations being equal, exhaust and intake, and set at 102 degrees maximum lift both. Maximum valve lifts were 10.4 mm, and at 1mm lift, durations were 274 degrees. Later Gary Flood changed these settings to give intake full lift at 98 degrees ATDC, but despite this early opening, no problem was ever found with valve to piston clearance. Later the intake cam was changed to one developed by John Judd when working with the Williams F1 team, which gave 1.5mm more peak lift.

Squish was set cold to 0,024 thou. but was found to shrink dynamically to 0.006 thou.

Exhaust header pipes were in 18 swg, of 1 7/8 inch outside diameter running into a collector with a parallel outlet pipe.

Dyno testing was done on a Heenan and Froude water brake, and just over 120 bhp was measured at the gearbox output shaft.

Testing showed the gear spacings to be less than ideal, the original design was for a 20% drop between each gear. It was found that the gap between fourth and top was too great and so the gears were re designed to give a drop of 12% which eventually proved ideal.
The clutch was of the diaphragm spring type which Gary Flood described as 'borderline'.

The Quantel Cosworth was raced very sucessfully by both Roger Marshall and Paul Lewis.
Following a period in retirement it was eventually sold to a German collector.
 
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Interesting details. Thanks. !

Snotzo said:
Initial attempts to run a fuel injection system were disastrous, best described by Gary Flood as impossible to map to be suitable for track use,
and likened it to an on/off system - with no in between !

Thats not an uncommon 'fault' with a new FI system. ?
Folks have noted that Kawasaki pulled out of MotoGP only 2 or 3 years ago because they couldn't get the FI to stop flicking the rider off.
And the riders weren't too thrilled with this either.
Honda reportedly hired/lured away a former Yahahaha expert for mega$$ to make their MotoGP bikes rideable and winnable.
Ducati hired Casey Stoner, who just rode around the problems - and won - against all the odds.
His team mate wasn't even in the same race..
 
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I knew 'The Ant' - Paul Lewis fairly well years ago, he was a top rider however I think he crashed badly and slowed down later.
 
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No one has mentioned how LOUD they were.
Saw one or was it two at a big BEARS (possibly a Post TT?) meeting at Mallory Park (which got a mention a few weeks ago).
I am fairly sure Paul Lewis was riding. Could have been Ian Cobby? Did he ever get a ride?
Anybody else remember the meeting? They can't have appeared that often at Mallory.
 
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