Piston Weight and Balance Factor?

Dan1950

1974 MK II Roadster
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I picked up a postage scale at Harbor Freight. I realize it's probably not accurate enough for precise balancing, it still revealed that my .020 over JS pistons are more than 1oz. lighter than the std. bore OEM specimens that were in my engine.

Piston Weight and Balance Factor?


Piston Weight and Balance Factor?


How will this affect the balance?
 
It probably won't have much effect as I believe the rods are a bit heavier?
1.2 ounces piston weight dif is about 35 grams, not a huge amount.
I think the isos can handle a fair bit.

At this point it might be worth considering having a dynamic crank balance done since it isn't normally big expense and it can help to reduce vibration.
I had the 920 crank done. It was about $200. It was more for peace of mind than anything. It might be marginally smoother than the 850 in the 2500-3000 zone before the isos do their thing and all goes smooth on both bikes.

You could also have the balancer correct for any weight differences between your old set up and the new.

Glen
 
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It probably won't have much effect as I believe the rods are a bit heavier?
1.2 ounces piston weight dif is about 35 grams, not a huge amount.
I think the isos can handle a fair bit.

At this point it might be worth considering having a dynamic crank balance done since it isn't normally big expense and it can help to reduce vibration.
I had the 920 crank done. It was about $200. It was more for peace of mind than anything. It might be marginally smoother than the 850 in the 2500-3000 zone before the isos do their thing and all goes smooth on both bikes.

You could also have the balancer correct for any weight differences between your old set up and the new.

Glen
I'm using the stock rods.

Cost isn't the main factor on foregoing a dynamic balance. There are no shops that do that near me and I do not want to ship off my rotating assembly.
 
I'm using the stock rods.

Cost isn't the main factor on foregoing a dynamic balance. There are no shops that do that near me and I do not want to ship off my rotating assembly.
Isn't your CR going to drop with the JS pistons (assuming they're the same ones he sells to go with the long rods?)
 
I picked up a postage scale at Harbor Freight. I realize it's probably not accurate enough for precise balancing, it still revealed that my .020 over JS pistons are more than 1oz. lighter than the std. bore OEM specimens that were in my engine.





How will this affect the balance?
Installed 30g (~1 oz) lighter pistons in my Triumph, no problems

Jim has a fair amount of balancing information on his website for various bits, pretty sure he doesn't recommend rebalancing after DLC pins installed on Commando engines.
 
Isn't your CR going to drop with the JS pistons (assuming they're the same ones he sells to go with the long rods?)
No, these are designed for stock rods. Static CR should be about 10.1:1, dynamic CR with the Web 312a cam and flat tappets should be about 7.5:1 compared to 7.1:1 with stock cam/pistons.
 
Nice thing about it taking a long time to finish up your rebuild is you more than likely won't remember what the ride was like before. It'll run so much better I think you'll be plenty happy. You can't stop a Norton from shaking a little regardless of how well the crank is balanced.
 
There is more to balancing than just the crank, pistons and rods need to be the same weight and everything connected to the crank for smooth running.
 
Dynamic balancing can stop secondary vinration - the rocking couple. But with a Commando crank that should not be a problem. When you statically bal;ance a crank - for high revs, balancing 72 % of the reciptocating weight is good. The standard factor for a Commando crank is about 54% - that is good for riding around town using up to about 4000 RPM. THere is no optimum balance factor which suits both circumstances. If you use a high balance factor, your bike might shake ot low revs. If you use a low balance factor, it will vibrate at high revs.
When you fit lighter pistons without changing anything else - it improves the balance factor for faster riding.
Race motors for 650SS and Atlas 750 often use balance factors near 80 % of the reciprocating weight.

One of my mates sent his good Triumph 650 crank to be dynamically balanced. It came back with a bit shaved off one end and was effectively stuffed. Car guys are idiots. They are all experts at it.
To dynamically balance one of our cranks, a couple of weights of the correct mass probably need to be clamped around the big ends. You can weigh the rods and pistons and claculate the needed mass - but how do you make the weights so they are of the correct mass ?
 
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Dynamic balancing can stop secondary vinration - the rocking couple. But with a Commando crank that should not be a problem. When you statically bal;ance a crank - for high revs, balancing 72 % of the reciptocating weight is good. The standard factor for a Commando crank is about 54% - that is good for riding around town using up to about 4000 RPM. THere is no optimum balance factor which suits both circumstances. If you use a high balance factor, your bike might shake ot low revs. If you use a low balance factor, it will vibrate at high revs.
When you fit lighter pistons without changing anything else - it improves the balance factor for faster riding.
Race motors for 650SS and Atlas 750 often use balance factors near 80 % of the reciprocating weight.

One of my mates sent his good Triumph 650 crank to be dynamically balanced. It came back with a bit shaved off one end and was effectively stuffed. Car guys are idiots. They are all experts at it.
To dynamically balance one of our cranks, a couple of weights of the correct mass probably need to be clamped around the big ends. You can weigh the rods and pistons and claculate the needed mass - but how do you make the weights so they are of the correct mass ?
So Al - you've just demonstrated your knowledge of balancing (static, dynamic and factor) as it applies to commandos is equally as crap as your understanding of front fork geometry.
At least you're consistent!
 
The ignore list demonstrates it's usefulness again ;)
Actually, I don't use the ignore list.
I believe it is incumbent on all of us, as users, to call out crap when we see it.
Not to do so potentially leaves a trap for some poor unsuspecting reader to trust unchallenged bullshit.
If, in the next few posts, the rubbish is exposed - we have done our job.
My view anyway.
Cheers

Edit: Not that I am always correct either - I hope I get called out as necessary
 
Dynamic balancing can stop secondary vinration - the rocking couple. But with the Command crank that should not be a problem.
For clarity, "secondary vibration" is not the rocking couple, it is the vibration that occurs at twice engine rpm. Read on rotational dynamics to understand.
...and, lack of dynamic balancing can be a significant problem for crankshafts as wide as a Commando.
The bullshit continues through the rest of the post.
Cheers
 
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No, these are designed for stock rods. Static CR should be about 10.1:1, dynamic CR with the Web 312a cam and flat tappets should be about 7.5:1 compared to 7.1:1 with stock cam/pistons.
Hi Dan,
Do you have a JS part # for your pistons.

Ed
 
It probably won't have much effect as I believe the rods are a bit heavier?
1.2 ounces piston weight dif is about 35 grams, not a huge amount.
I think the isos can handle a fair bit.

At this point it might be worth considering having a dynamic crank balance done since it isn't normally big expense and it can help to reduce vibration.
I had the 920 crank done. It was about $200. It was more for peace of mind than anything. It might be marginally smoother than the 850 in the 2500-3000 zone before the isos do their thing and all goes smooth on both bikes.

You could also have the balancer correct for any weight differences between your old set up and the new.

Glen
Glen,
When you send off to have your crank balanced,don’t you send the pistons?Honest question.
Thanks,
Mike
 
Glen,
When you send off to have your crank balanced,don’t you send the pistons?Honest question.
Thanks,
Mike
You should send pistons, rods, rings and gudgeon pins/clips.
The balancer will need to know all of the reciprocating mass to do their job properly.
They will set up bob weights to simulate them.
Cheers
 
Glen,
When you send off to have your crank balanced,don’t you send the pistons?Honest question.
Thanks,
Mike
Yes, that's correct, pistons, rings, rods , pins and circlips all went with the crank.
The balancer has a much better scale than my postal scale plus he likes to verify all of the weights rather than rely on my numbers.
The only number he got from me was the desired balance factor.

Glen
 
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