Peter Williams and Kim Newcombe.

Here is a photo that Rod Tingate sent me. I would not have thought a commando would go that fast :

In the 1973 Isle of Man Formula 750 race Peter Williams averaged 105mph and whomped the field by over three minutes, all on his factory John Player Commando.

That year he was also brilliant on the British short circuit events.

Williams lapped at 107.27 mph, which was just under the outright lap set by TT legend Mike Hailwood six years earlier in 1967 on a Honda.

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Er Yuk .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-SOXVVdIZ4

The problem with the rice burners was if you left the throttle on the frame would twist and get knotted , and the H.P. quoted was at the spark plug leads on the drawing board . :twisted:

Besides , the Norton was the Fastest Motorcycle in the World , back then ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvopCDu0CIE

Matt , a rotary disc valve four cylinder 500cc two stroke MotoGP bike is a serious bit of business, even disregarding the fact that most two stroke engined bikes are easier to ride than old British four stroke twins.
The commando had 1.5 times the capacity of the Konig, however I would still not expect it to be in front. My 250cc Suzuki on methanol would crap on most larger four strokes for 3 laps of a 4 lap race on a short circuit with half the physical effort from the rider. After the 3rd lap the crankcases heat up so the supercharging effect of the methanol is less, and the drum brakes start to fade, so the bike goes slower and won't stop. All sources of great joy. Have you ever ridden a two stroke into a head wind ? - they sometimes almost stall for lack of torque.

There was a very interesting post on that Konig not too long ago. VERY interesting.

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from the photo.....for example Newsombe looks well placed to make a move....

I saw those JPNs leading more races that they probably shouldn't have and certainly more than they won. And at some circuits they lead MV 500s at least for a time, which Newcombe was just beginning to be able to do.

What we do know is that on its day the Koenig was a missile....and the chassis worked pretty well, but I bet Newcombe had some fun getting it on the power....

But that is very far from a Commando, being 73 it should be the monocoque (one of which Croxford had probably trashed earlier that day). On a circuit that allowed it (probably this one :wink: ), Williams would take advantage of low CofG from overall height and tank location, better aerodynamics, and possibly better brakes, certainly he would have good circuit knowledge and oh BTW, he was a very fast and pretty determined rider.

We know Newcombe was certainly no slouch winning a GP in '73, but I suspect that in all of his time in Europe he was on a learning curve that as a rider Williams was ahead of.

So sad that both careers were cut short, one within possibly no more than minutes of this race, the other just over a year later.

Sad that the projects ended as well.

Sometimes a big torquey twin has an advantage over a peaky two stroke, however my feeling is that Williams should not have been able to see which way the Konig went, almost regardless of the circuit. Rod Tingate mentioned to me that for quite a while Williams and Newcombe were competing with each other. To me that says a lot of good things about the commando. I don't know why I never believed in my own for all those years. When I finally did get around to racing it, I was amazed just how good it really is.

acotrel said:

Sometimes a big torquey twin has an advantage over a peaky two stroke, however my feeling is that Williams should not have been able to see which way the Konig went, almost regardless of the circuit. Rod Tingate mentioned to me that for quite a while Williams and Newcombe were competing with each other. To me that says a lot of good things about the commando. I don't know why I never believed in my own for all those years. When I finally did get around to racing it, I was amazed just how good it really is.

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To me it says an enormous amount about Williams whose riding talent and passion is often totally underestimated.

It also says huge things about his engineering talent as well, he designed pretty much everything on that bike.....like I said, there wasn't much Commando in that Monocoque......just the engine, even that with a Williams designed cam....Norman White told me that he would produce a new one almost every week!

Newcombe was obviously a similar talented breed, but perhaps less responsible design wise for the bike he was riding.

SteveA said:

Newcombe was obviously a similar talented breed, but perhaps less responsible design wise for the bike he was riding.

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Really? I thought he developed and designed it himself. Check out the documentary.

[video]http://media-src.nzonscreen.com/0000/3143/2703.01.Apple.1745.HI.m4v[/video]

Edit: dont know if those outside NZ can see it. But it looks like it is broken into chunks here - http://www.motorsportretro.com/2010/06/ ... -and-loss/

I'm getting the first block of video in Dixieland, cool. Another Achilles legend. Some many strains to live like a racer.
Was there ever a period that a show room type isolastic frame Commando ever did well against the world road racing, other than an endurance test?

gortnipper said:

SteveA said:

Newcombe was obviously a similar talented breed, but perhaps less responsible design wise for the bike he was riding.

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Really? I thought he developed and designed it himself. Check out the documentary.


Edit: dont know if those outside NZ can see it. But it looks like it is broken into chunks here - http://www.motorsportretro.com/2010/06/ ... -and-loss/

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Havent seen the documentary and can't view the video you posted.

Do understand I am not criticising Newcombe at all, not one bit, definately an overachiever based on what he had at his disposal and the opposition he took on. Please note word 'perhaps'.....it is important.

Newcombe did not design the Koenig engine or the Norton gearbox or wheels and suspension. The frame is unique to house it. But it could be said it uses design clues from both Seeley and Dunstall Low Boy, maybe even Egli. Not 'conventional' but not at the time 'radical'. Aerodynamics were off the shelf style 'conventional' fairings. Newcombe was obviously talented and did a lot of development, assisted by John Dodds. What was Dodds input apart from riding? I don't know.

Williams.....the monocoque...radical concept at the time, providing rigidity, low CofG, with other innovations like low mounted tanks, swinging arm fuel pumps, one piece tank cover and seat (though he may have come to rue that). It ran on wheels that were his design, that he had introduced as a radical departure a few years before on the Arter Matchless. Aerodynamics, hours spent by Williams himself developing hypothermia in the wind tunnel, aerodynamically the most advanced racer at that time. Hours of time designing cams and on the dyno, and developing the transmission to overcome inherent weakness.

Obviously Williams also had others around him. There is a history or lone Kiwis taking on the world and over achieving, and arguably Newcombe working within a bigger team would have followed similar routes to Williams.

But somehow it seems to me that even we Norton enthusiasts forget just what Peter Williams achieved. Far more than race results, and there were significant results. That is not a Commando, it has a Commando engine. It was the peak of Williams' contrubution to motorcycle design and development in the 1970s. 'Perhaps' Nortons direction in pursuing the space frame the following year was a mistake, but that was innovative too.

Can we equate Peter Williams TT win on the monocoque with Newcombe's GP win on his bike? Certainly both were great achievements.

Newcombes achievements are frozen in time by his death, who knows what he might have gone on to do. Williams survived his horific accident, he nearly didn't, spent a long time in recuperation and had to create a new life, with some remaining challenges.

He is still out there doing radical design things.

Apparently Kim worked for a business which sold boats, where he first saw the Konig boat engines.. I think he might have made the frame in NZ, however he got together with Dieter Konig, and did the development with his help. Rod Tingate was with Kim when he was killed, and was offered the GP ride. However he ended up in a bad mental state after getting Kim's family back to NZ. About the time Rod got together with Kim he was working for Colin Seeley and sleeping in a van in the back of the factory. From memory Kim was killed on Stowe corner after complaining that it was dangerous, the steward involved got a hard time over it, however it was just the era - we tolerated more danger back then.

Certainly this has inspired me to know more about Kim Newcombe.....

I believe that Newcombe's Konig was the first 500cc rotary disc valve GP bike. I'm amazed it did so well with a Norton gearbox behind it. For Peter Williams to compete effectively with it was probably a greater feat of engineering, however I believe he was 'flogging a dead horse'. The commando was near the end of it's development cycle, the four cylinder two stroke was at it's beginning.

It is often forgotten that the Konig 500 , with its water cooling was used as a sidecar engine in the 500 class :shock:

http://www.steveenglish.com/forum/viewt ... 0&start=45

acotrel said:

I believe that Newcombe's Konig was the first 500cc rotary disc valve GP bike. I'm amazed it did so well with a Norton gearbox behind it. For Peter Williams to compete effectively with it was probably a greater feat of engineering, however I believe he was 'flogging a dead horse'. The commando was near the end of it's development cycle, the four cylinder two stroke was at it's beginning.

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I'd forgotten they even put the engine in a solo until I went to the Bikers Classic meet at Spa earlier this year and they had one sat amongst about 25 RG500s and a few TZs.

I was much more used to seeing the engine go in sidecars because they were running at the front of the pack whereas the solo rarely reached those giddy heights.

The Nick and Gerry Boret Konig sidecar (Windle ? )was brought to Australia in the 70s, where it won the newly constructed Junior Sidecar Championship. The fella that bought it had successfully lobbied the controlling body to have the capacity limit reduced from 750cc to 500cc, and kept his mouth shut about the bike he had coming. I believe that outfit is now in New Zealand.
You've gotta laugh, some guys will do anything for a win.

Was there ever a period that a show room type isolastic frame Commando ever did well against the world road racing

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oops . :shock: ' good view of a unusual angle ' , :?

RIGHT ! Where Were We !

Did Well / Did WELL , Bloody Cleaned Up ! .

origins of AMA Superbike can be directly traced to the AFM Production class races in Southern California of the late 1960s and early ‘70s. Many of the top riders of the AFM days went on to stardom when the AMA launched the national series in 1976. Riders like Reg Pridmore, Wes Cooley, Steve McLaughlin, Keith Code and Cook Neilson are etched in history due to their success in AMA Superbike, but a trio of Norton riders, who were some of the earliest Superbike racers, quit before the series went national and as a result have been overlooked despite their major influence on the popularization of Superbike racing.

George Kerker, Jack Simmons and Bill Manley were better known to their fans, journalists and fellow competitors as the Norton Gang. Rather than run the conventional road racing machines of the era with clip-ons, fairings and rear-sets, the Norton Gang elected to race production Norton Commandos, high bars, low pegs and all. While in retrospect the Norton Gang were simply harking back to the traditional AMA Class C concept (production-based racing) the Norton Gang were consider rebels among the road racing traditionalists of the late 1960s.

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a commonly held falicy is that RED is fastest , however . . .







After being overawed by the Norton Sound , George Kerker went on to develop exhaust system so that rice burners wouldn't sound like vacuum cleaners . :mrgreen:

George Kerker is a household name around here in Motorcycle circles and will forever be tied to both Nortons and Headers. This is his Purple "S" type that he used to flog to victory in AFM club races in the late 60's and real early 70's. The Norton Wrecking Crew from Bakersfield Norton Dealer ,Jack Simmons consisted of Jack,George,Reg Pridmore and Bill Manley all riding high bar,stock footpegs,hotted up Commandos in the Premier class called Heavyweight Production. They did best at the little OCIR Drag Strip and back road race course.They trounced the Clip on ,rearset crowd and weren't appreciated by the traditional Road Racers.George went on to race his beloved Nortons in other organizations but the antics from Orange County International Raceways are legendary. Lots of sideways action fighting a slew of Triumphs twins and triples,BSA,same, Kawi 500 triples and wobbly dangeous looking Honda 4s. This was the start of the so called Super Bike class in the States. The name Super Bike was copied from the Australian series with the same kind of bikes at that time.

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Superbike racing really began in Australia with the Z1 Kawasaki. It was interesting in about 1973 that the young guy on the Jim Eade SFC Laverda trounced all the top guys on Z1s at Phillip Island using methanol. There was only one commando that I can remember racing in Victoria - owned by Stanco and ridden by Curley.

http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index ... 87.25;wap2