part 2 - second alton starter failure - the fix

Peter Waller said:
I fitted the yves fix after the woodruff key sheared on the crankshaft of my Commando and all was good for 2 months UNTILL.....a screeching from the starter motor but it is not turning the cog with the cush drive. It is the the double gear that connects between the starter motor and the cush drive.
I can feel teeth missing from the cog that is deep in the recess were the cush drive slots into .

To be honest is have been an awful time with this starter motor kit. After a month of fitting the key on the end of the crank shaft that the sprag clutch fits onto sheared off and we had major difficulty removing the sprag clutch. We then had an engineer make us up the "YVES" fix as show on all the Norton forums and we fitted a new sprag clutch...all this at great expense.
Everything worked fine for 2 months and now this has happened and it looks like the whole lot will have to be removed again to hopefully repair the starter motor or gear cogs that go between the starter motor and the cush drive gear.

As said the starter is screeching but not turning the cush drive cog and I can feel bits of metal with my finger when you feel into the teeth of the cog that is connected to the starter motor. Has anyone had this problem AND CAN IT BE FIXED:(
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Blimey sorry to read this
Mine is totally reliable
 
joe czech said:
if i understand what you are saying, the answer is yes. although not bolted, but two pins are threaded into the engine sprocket, and slip fit into mating holes in the newly designed spacer. kind of a neat design. from yves original design, two temporary threaded pins are fab'd to locate the mating holes in the spacer. when complete, the whole assembly is held together with the retaining nut. reference - https://www.accessnorton.com/Norton...-solution-for-broken-woodruff-key-2017.24163/
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Hi, have just disc cut my alton hub to pieces to get it off as thw key had sheered and smeared. Will have to get a mortgage to buy a new on and will make up the drive spacer so it does not happen again. Is it possible for you to post the dimensions for the part please? Thankyou John
 
John Hatton said:
Hi, have just disc cut my alton hub to pieces to get it off as thw key had sheered and smeared. Will have to get a mortgage to buy a new on and will make up the drive spacer so it does not happen again. Is it possible for you to post the dimensions for the part please? Thankyou John
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It's a pity some enterprising person hasn't seen an opertunity to manufacture a modification kit with all the parts machined and ready to fit??
 
John Hatton said:
Hi, have just disc cut my alton hub to pieces to get it off as thw key had sheered and smeared. Will have to get a mortgage to buy a new on and will make up the drive spacer so it does not happen again. Is it possible for you to post the dimensions for the part please? Thankyou John
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Welcome John. Have you contacted Alton?

Are you running standard setup, or belt drive?

I know member @Bonzo had his apart last week so may be able to provide the measurements you need.
 
John Hatton said:
Hi, have just disc cut my alton hub to pieces to get it off as thw key had sheered and smeared. Will have to get a mortgage to buy a new on and will make up the drive spacer so it does not happen again. Is it possible for you to post the dimensions for the part please? Thankyou John
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Hi, and welcome. Please tell us about your skillset.⚙️🔧
 
John Hatton said:
Hi, have just disc cut my alton hub to pieces to get it off as thw key had sheered and smeared. Will have to get a mortgage to buy a new on and will make up the drive spacer so it does not happen again. Is it possible for you to post the dimensions for the part please? Thankyou John
Click to expand...

Hi John,

I still have my Alton in pieces 'on the bench'. Which part are you needing the dimms for?

Of course, you'll get much more reliable information & support from Alton directly (though they haven't responded to the last couple of emails I sent them :()
 
Use the search tool and key in"Alton starter my solution for broken Woodruff key (2017)"

Posted by: Yves norton seeley Nov 25,2017

Sorry, I haven't figured out how to direct link it

Post#13 in that thread has a drawing of the spacer
 
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One thing I have mentioned before , is to carefully torque the nut. I would do things like: Heating the triple sprocket a little and hitting it with to make sure it is fully seated, Make sure the alternator rotor has smooth flat, square and degreased surfaces and on every part in the assembly. And when you tighten and torque the nut tighten and loosen it a few times and even tap lightly with a hammer. Then when tightened , Mark the nut so you can see any changes in the amount more it turned.

Then testing the starter several times to see it function without spark plugs in the engine. And then finally remove the nut, Clean the nut and thread and use Loctite on it, and then do a final tightening quickly and add a few extra Lbs of torque.. After you actually use it for a while you might want to do the torque all over.

I read directions that came with an inexpensive Sears torque wrench, and it stated, " When doing the final torque: "To do the last round (amount) by keeping the wrench moving until you reach the desired Number". KEEP the wrench moving to get accurate and full torque. The clicky , clicks after don't count for nothing!

It is a shame that is up to the buyer to do fixes and lose money and or time from damage, And it counts on a rotor key. Maybe a key made with stronger materials would help some????

When I did my CNW starter, I checked the torque after I tested the starter and the torque was off and It needed quite a bit more. Luckily, I knew that things could change and needed extra care from reading all the problems and damage the Altron can do.

Experience level,, Enough to know better most times. THRS
 
Hi John,
The question is why has this happened. How many shear dowels are you using?
I think there are two factors I would look at to stop this happening.
First is to have an up to date electronic ignition that has ignition retard to ATDC at engine rpm less than 500 rpm when
maximum advance is timed to 28 degrees. I don't know but I suspect that early electronic ignitions may not have had this.
Do tell us what ignition you have and the year bought.
The second is to be sure that the crank nut is fully torqued and settled. What I do first is to be sure that the Alton assembly slides right onto the
crank fully and thus sand the crank a bit if not as per Alton instructions. I then ensure all is clean and torque it up without loctite on the nut.
I wait a few days for settling, then I undo it and torque it up again. I guess another way is to also let it go through a heat cycle by running the engine, cooling off then doing a retorque.
 
Carl H said:
One thing I have mentioned before , is to carefully torque the nut. I would do things like: Heating the triple sprocket a little and hitting it with to make sure it is fully seated, Make sure the alternator rotor has smooth flat, square and degreased surfaces and on every part in the assembly. And when you tighten and torque the nut tighten and loosen it a few times and even tap lightly with a hammer. Then when tightened , Mark the nut so you can see any changes in the amount more it turned.

Then testing the starter several times to see it function without spark plugs in the engine. And then finally remove the nut, Clean the nut and thread and use Loctite on it, and then do a final tightening quickly and add a few extra Lbs of torque.. After you actually use it for a while you might want to do the torque all over.

I read directions that came with an inexpensive Sears torque wrench, and it stated, " When doing the final torque: "To do the last round (amount) by keeping the wrench moving until you reach the desired Number". KEEP the wrench moving to get accurate and full torque. The clicky , clicks after don't count for nothing!

It is a shame that is up to the buyer to do fixes and lose money and or time from damage, And it counts on a rotor key. Maybe a key made with stronger materials would help some????

When I did my CNW starter, I checked the torque after I tested the starter and the torque was off and It needed quite a bit more. Luckily, I knew that things could change and needed extra care from reading all the problems and damage the Altron can do.

Experience level,, Enough to know better most times. THRS
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The woodruff key is really only there so’s the timing marks are in the right place, and it definitely shouldn’t be taking any load on a parallel shaft, so In my opinion a softer key would be better (aluminum?), then if the sprag assembly comes loose, that key will shear without damaging the crank, and I think there’d be more chance the sprag wouldn’t need to be cut off either.
 
One more suggestion from long ago in the thread, is to ensure that the crank nut is not bottoming before fully tightening the nut. So you thread the nut on with washer, tighten to torque, then take off nut and washer and thread on finger tight and check that nut is fully seated. Then take off, put washer and nut on etc.
Dennis
 
DennisMo said:
One more suggestion from long ago in the thread, is to ensure that the crank nut is not bottoming before fully tightening the nut. So you thread the nut on with washer, tighten to torque, then take off nut and washer and thread on finger tight and check that nut is fully seated. Then take off, put washer and nut on etc.
Dennis
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I reversed the nut on mine, and bought a big belleville washer to go underneath it...
part 2 - second alton starter failure - the fix
 
cliffa said:
I reversed the nut on mine, and bought a big belleville washer to go underneath it...View attachment 123743
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Yikes... the only problem i can see with this approach it that there's hardly any thread of the nut in contact with the crank, the Belleville washers fine to stop it slackening but id be really concerned about stripping the thread on the crank at 75lb ft of torque
 
I would be concerned about that too. You might actually deform the threads on the crank with all that torque force on fewer threads
Dennis
 
ANSI states that for nut/bolt fittings there should be at least ONE full thread above the top of the threaded portion of a nut.

FWIW, when I was drag racing in NHRA Super Stock years ago, they required wheel nuts to have stud protrusion beyond the nut equal to the thickness of the stud. IOW, if the stud was, say 5/16" in diameter, there had to be 5/16" of threads showing above the nut.
 
I thought long and hard before reversing the nut. Using it the other way around meant I couldn’t really use the washer, and I wanted to use it to give more support to the outer plate, as I’d seen those broken before. In actual fact you only lose a couple of turns of thread. I realize it’s not following ANSI or other standards, but it’s been ok since it was installed and has done countless starts.
 

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