P11 (?) Steering Head Help

ducremus · Jul 5, 2010

This is my first post on this great site, after months of lurking. I searched the site for help but couldn't find anything, so here goes:

I just acquired what I believe is a '66 or '67 P11. The good news is it runs. The bad news is it's been cobbed and hacked more than anything I've ever seen before! The immediate problem is the steering head bearings: I believe the stock steering head had ball bearings, and the bearing race is actually part of the frame, i.e. they're not replaceable. Both top and bottom races are pretty well chewed up and not usable, as the previous owner had jammed the race for a tapered roller setup in to the ball bearing space. :shock:

My questions: Are the races in fact part of the frame and not replaceable? If so, how do I repair them? Are they like cylinder bores that I could enlarge and buy a larger set of bearings for? Is there some sort of standard "fix" for this problem?

BTW, I've noticed many publications and diagrams out on the web for the Commando line, but very little for the Atlas/P11: Does anyone know where I might find an exploded parts diagram for the P11 series? Sorry for all the questions, especially on a first post. Guess I've been saving them up for too long!

Thanks!

swooshdave · Jul 5, 2010

ducremus said:
This is my first post on this great site, after months of lurking. I searched the site for help but couldn't find anything, so here goes:

I just acquired what I believe is a '66 or '67 P11. The good news is it runs. The bad news is it's been cobbed and hacked more than anything I've ever seen before! The immediate problem is the steering head bearings: I believe the stock steering head had ball bearings, and the bearing race is actually part of the frame, i.e. they're not replaceable. Both top and bottom races are pretty well chewed up and not usable, as the previous owner had jammed the race for a tapered roller setup in to the ball bearing space. :shock:

My questions: Are the races in fact part of the frame and not replaceable? If so, how do I repair them? Are they like cylinder bores that I could enlarge and buy a larger set of bearings for? Is there some sort of standard "fix" for this problem?

BTW, I've noticed many publications and diagrams out on the web for the Commando line, but very little for the Atlas/P11: Does anyone know where I might find an exploded parts diagram for the P11 series? Sorry for all the questions, especially on a first post. Guess I've been saving them up for too long!

Thanks!

If you've been lurking then you know what's coming next.... pictures? :mrgreen:

ducremus · Jul 5, 2010

Yeah, I was afraid of that.

What do you think?

possm · Jul 5, 2010

The p11 frame was basicly a Matchless G85 scramler chasis with the 750 engine and gearbox transplanted in it, there were aprox 2500 P11s built covering 3 models p11, p11a and lastly the Ranger. I previously owned a Ranger for a number of years but reference material is hard to find, there used to be a owners group in England called Hicam that specialized in hibrid Nortons i dont have their contact details but they were well knowen i beleive a senior member was a Paul Morran.
Regards Al

BillT · Jul 7, 2010

I'm just starting on a Ranger restoration. I will be taking the forks off this weekend, but I have a copy of 'Recommended Prices, Master Parts List 1966-1967-1968 for models, 650SS: Atlas: N15CS: P11: P11A: G15CS: G15CSR: G15 MkII'

In this manual, there are line items that call out 4 races
part No. Description Qty Models fitted to suggested price (L ,s, d)
012620 Handlebar-lug race 1 P11, P11A - 7 11
000806 Frame headlug top and bottom races 2 P11, P11A - 8 2
000805 Fork-crown race 1 P11, P11A - 8 1
000072 Steering-head balls 56 P11, P11A set - 3 7

The way I read this, the races are replaceable.

Wish they were still at those prices!

ducremus · Jul 8, 2010

Thanks very much for that information. I've been digging around and asking questions, and I do believe they are replaceable, but I'm not sure at this point how I would go about getting the old ones off and how to acquire new ones. First things first I guess: Time so chip away at the frame paint and see if they're actually welded on the frame as the pictures suggest. Does your manual have any pictures of how it all goes together?

Danno · Jul 8, 2010

Looks like the steering head is a cast part brazed to the frame tubes rather than a tubular section welded on as on Commandos. The races would be made of a harder material and may be pressed in place. If you aren't concerned about the frame paint, you might try prying them out or knocking them out with a drift from the opposite ends after a judicious application of a bit of heat to the outside of the head itself.

ironjohns · Jul 8, 2010

HI I HAVE done mods for a few guys u can put in taperd bearing in that is what i have done on my own matchless frames or just use the stock bearings later ironjohn

swooshdave · Jul 8, 2010

If I were to guess there might be a seam where I have the thin red lines.

Hard to tell from the pics but the upper race doesn't look *that* bad.

willh · Jul 8, 2010

ducremus said:
This is my first post on this great site, after months of lurking. I searched the site for help but couldn't find anything, so here goes:

I just acquired what I believe is a '66 or '67 P11. The good news is it runs. The bad news is it's been cobbed and hacked more than anything I've ever seen before! The immediate problem is the steering head bearings: I believe the stock steering head had ball bearings, and the bearing race is actually part of the frame, i.e. they're not replaceable. Both top and bottom races are pretty well chewed up and not usable, as the previous owner had jammed the race for a tapered roller setup in to the ball bearing space. :shock:

My questions: Are the races in fact part of the frame and not replaceable? If so, how do I repair them? Are they like cylinder bores that I could enlarge and buy a larger set of bearings for? Is there some sort of standard "fix" for this problem?

BTW, I've noticed many publications and diagrams out on the web for the Commando line, but very little for the Atlas/P11: Does anyone know where I might find an exploded parts diagram for the P11 series? Sorry for all the questions, especially on a first post. Guess I've been saving them up for too long!
Thanks!

I thought the same thing at first.
What looks like races are actually where the races will go.

Hope this helps.

I want to put Timken bearings in mine. Shave off the race holders, sleeve the neck and press in H-D style cups and Timken bearings.

Will

ducremus · Jul 8, 2010

That's great! Now it's starting to make sense.

I wonder where I can buy them? I tried British Cycle Supply and they didn't know anything about them.

willh · Jul 8, 2010

http://www.walridge.com/section/view/

sales@walridge.com

They are the P11 people, they should be able to help you out.

Will

ducremus · Jul 8, 2010

Thank you VERY much! Thank you ALL very much. Is this a great site or what?

P11 (?) Steering Head Help

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