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  1. 3 of them

    3 of them

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    straight 50 slows wet sumping down .Although this time of year the wheels should be turning frequently anyway
     
  2. htown16

    htown16 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2009
    Dino 20w/50 Valvoline 4 stroke motorcycle oil. Relitively nexpensive and most of the autoparts store chains and even Walmart carry it.
     
  3. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Do I get to mention the flat tappet and V-twin oil situation? Hey, not my fault, you know what happens when
    an oil thread gets started.
     
  4. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Valvoline has a product called VR1 racing oil. It sounds expensive but it isn't
    Formulated for flat tappet engines so it is high in zinc. Available at Walmart, Napa, Amazon etc.
    I run 20/50 in my old bikes unless it's over 90 f. I had to switch to straight 50 when out on a tour in extreme heat and mountains. Was going thru the 20/50 in the heat at about a litre per 500miles. The switch to 50 weight allowed the entire return trip of 2000 miles on less than a litre.
    I won't claim it's the very best oil but it is made for the job, relatively inexpensive and generally easy to find in North America.
    I've run 60,000 miles on the Vincent on this oil. Hoping to do another 40,000 before rebuild.

    Glen
     
    o0norton0o likes this.
  5. Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Well I finally looked at real info about oil (engineering info about what goes into the making of different oils). Must admit I had much wrong. The W is just the designation of a testing proceedure (as in 20W-40). There was a heck of a lot more, but there were some things said that would be important to me. 1) you want about 10 lbs. of pressure for every 1000 rpm under your own riding conditions. So 4,000 rpm should give about 40lbs. pressure. That's according to many manufacturers. But I don't know what Norton says about that. 2) ALL oils are too thick on start up -- they violate the 10 lbs./1000rpm rule. So you want maybe a 0W-50 (synthetics go that low) or 0W-40 or whatever. Even 0W will be too thick on start-up at 75°F. But it thins to the correct viscosity much faster than, say, even 20W 50. Because the oil is always too thick on start-up it doesn't flow fast enough and flow, not pressure, keeps metal separated. And that's why almost all wear occurs on start-up. So the pressure gives you a means to tell if you really need 50 grade on the high end.-- maybe higher, maybe lower -- according to riding style and the oil pressure guage. 3) synthetics start at the high grade, but standard petroleum based starts at the low grade and achieves the high value with extenders which break down. When it degrades viscosity drops (gets thinner when hot) and it can no longer stay at the necessary 10lbs/1000rpm to acheive proper flow. It also gets a little thicker on the low end when cold and that's far worse. 4) Again, it's the flow not the pressure that keeps metal separated. There was a lot more, but maybe I could find it in the forums back pages. I'll look some more. Meanwhile I think it would really pay me to install a good oil pressure guage. Anyone know the right connection for that? Just this one thing more. All I have written about this comes from reading, reading publications from the oil manufacturers and such car makers as Ferarri, etc. I have yet to find anything from the aircooled engine people, though modern Norton, Deutz and Porche and even Harley would be a good place for me to start. And, yes, if this is all on our back pages it really is my fault for not finding it yet it. Mea Culpa.
     
    Nater_Potater likes this.
  6. Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    If what I read was true, I'd rather spend more on oil than save a little and start the bike cold with 50 grade. The pressure values on start-up for 50 grade were in the hundreds per 1000 rpm unless of course Everthing is leaking like a sieve; in which case there would Really be no good flow to the bearings anyway. The high pressure on start-up in the tests that were run meant the oil wasn't going anywhere on start-up, almost no flow, until things heated up and the gremlins of bearing wear and tear got their fill of hot bearing dust and had to leave.
     
  7. Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Just a note to all that: since when any of the oils are cold they are far more viscous than when hot, it seems reasonable there would be more leaking when hot. Since petroleum based degrades so that the extenders no longer "extend" well, when hot, your engine will leak even more. 20W-50 when new has the same viscosity at operating temp as straight 50 grade. So the problem is worn oil. Also read that the petroleum based with extenders actually degrades in storage, especially if it gets winter cold then summer hot! Even if you buy it somewhere new (unless they've got good stock turnover) it may not be "like new". But straight 50 grade has no extenders. With wear, outside of major petrol dilution it will actually get thicker. So it will stay at 50 grade and above as time goes on. Still, start-up wear FAR out-weighs any such considerations. Sorry to have gone on so, but I found the engineering papers pretty dog gone fascinating.
     
  8. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Perhaps the choice is more wear at start up and less chance of a major failure at full operating temp. What happens when you run
    a zero weight syn in an old aircooled design? Low startup wear and seizure out on the road?
    We all know where the OP gauge needle is on a hot day.
     
  9. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    I use 10W/60 fully synthetic, the fuzz build up on the sump magnet found on each oil change with Dino oil has gone even with extended mileages.
     
  10. JimC

    JimC

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007

    Based upon extensive road testing with a Commando, Redline synthetic is far superior to dino oils.

    The lady who owns Web Cams detests Mobil 1.
     
  11. CanukNortonNut

    CanukNortonNut

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    I use Kendall GT-1 Liquid Titanium SAE 50 for my 850 interstate mileage mule. I do oil changes every 1200 to 1500 mile intervals with a new filter. Seems to work for me.
    Cheers,
    Thomas
     
  12. Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    As was stated, all major wear occurs on start-up. But if there is something so wrong and it gets so hot out on the road you have a problem not even oil thicker than 50 grade will fix. All that aside, an oil pressure guage tells you all about what's going on.
     
    JimC likes this.
  13. Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joe Schlaberdowski

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    By the way, we're not talking about 0 grade synthetic. O grade at start-up when cold just means maybe 30 lbs pressure (or thereabouts) per 1000 rpm. It will also be a synthetic and hold it's high grade better. Maybe it's a 0W-50. This means that out on the road it will be like any other 50 grade, whether multi-grade or single grade at operating temperatures. It will not be thinner.
     
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  14. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013

    +1 on that.

    I use 20/60 Redline in all my bikes (apart from th 961, but that’s to be investigated later). I always use the motorcycle specific oil as it has really high levels of ZDDP.

    Ref the thick oil at start up issue...

    I would actually argue that straight 50 is too thick for the pump to pull through at the desired rate when cold.

    With super high quality 20/50, 20/60, etc available, I personally can’t see any good argument for straight 50.
     
    Nater_Potater likes this.
  15. Bodger

    Bodger VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    FWIW not all Mobil 1 is created equal. The regular 20 w 50 has about as much zinc as Valvoline VR and, by memory, the Mobil 1 V Twin also has a fair amount of zinc
     
    JimC likes this.
  16. JimC

    JimC

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    IIRC, Comnoz uses Mobil 1 V Twin. I’d say he knows a fair amount about engine wear and efficacy of oils.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
    Nater_Potater likes this.
  17. Danno

    Danno

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    There are test papers available showing results of oils stressed to the max and all the Mobil 1s are right up there at the top or near it in every test. It's not the only top-shelf lubricant out there and there may be better ones, but it's certainly good enough for me. I don't think there is much ZDDP in over-the-counter lubricants anymore, but at one time, it was a revolutionary additive, one of the first to prolong engine life and stave off wear.
     
  18. JimC

    JimC

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Bob Raber is big on Torco oil. Hi zinc content. My personal choice is Redline 20w/50. Brewed in Benicia, California.

    I also believe an oil cooler w/thermostat prolongs the life of Norton engines. Measuring oil temps BC and AC convinced me of this.
     
  19. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    From Redlines web site: “Full-synthetic with PAO and Ester base stocks and 2200 ppm of ZDDP for antiwear”.

    ZDDP is specifically useful for flat tappet motors like ours to avoid cam and follower wear. Given the propensity of these motors to have issues with cams and followers, ZDDP seems like sensible insurance to me.
     
    JimC likes this.
  20. JimC

    JimC

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007

    Yup. And another “insurance” is an oil cooler.
     
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