OIF propper plumbing physics please?

Oil in spine drains into RH frame loop.
RH frame loop exits into shut off valve then into oil pump.
Exit engine into filter and check valve then into LH frame loop.
LH loop connects to front of spine.
Fill cap at front of spine with a MX one way in only vent to prevent tip over spillage.
Ring bypass gases get pulled out by exhaust sucker with a meter valve in hose.

If head down to low and long, oil can exit from front of spine into LH frame loop
and still maintain oil head above the oil valve into pump.

There's a tube silver soldered in bottom back of spine to LH frame, can't see in this photo.
Can see the RH frame tube welded into spine.
Can't see oil level sight tube that also feeds down hill oil into RH frame,
expect for the brass fitting just below the tank mount plate.
Can see brass oil valve and level in this snap shot.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x93/ ... g&newest=1

Can tag it to enlarge some but also use browser zoom function to eye ball more detail.

Will it work or starve oil flow or just over pressure and blow up?

hobot

My guess would be that long before you starve the engine of oil, it will fall over, leak oil and gas, catch fire, and burn, because the drilled out side stand fails.

Oh Yes rub it in. Burt Monroe would count strokes or measure his
hand sanded frames till they broke to know when to quit next time.

I pressed or rather drilled though my luck in one side stand,
so new Peel will avoid that Norton barge anchor all together,
somehow I ain't figured out yet. Plenty tress and posts here regardless.

Already got antique fully charged brass fire extinguisher that squirts
a jet of flame killing liquid, to put out Peel and others in need.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1287955 ... 1179KsURBi

I see a whole lot of frame tubes you could still drill...

Hobot, what am I missing here, what is wrong with stock oil plumbing set up!

Why do you feel the need to change this proven way and add your complication?

What real benefit over stock are you aiming for?

highdesert said:

Hobot, what am I missing here, what is wrong with stock oil plumbing set up!

Why do you feel the need to change this proven way and add your complication?

What real benefit over stock are you aiming for?

Click to expand...

Not all customization needs to make sense. :mrgreen:

The added benefit is no "external" oil tank.

The drawbacks are many, including the frame not holding enough oil.

This is a great idea!!! Since I saw the Dreer' Norton I wanted to do this! I would have stay at the top of the frame but I love your work!
Keep us posted on the outcome!
Philippe

Bear with me here a minute.Are you are trying to use the top tube of the frame as an oil tank? If so thats a great idea if it works.

Two goals,
First > the funnest bike in the world to live on in a wide
range of tasks.
2nd > to spank the best sports bikes in their element below
160 mph or so. F1 and GP bikes can hardly touch 150 at
Barber's don't ya know!

Nothing 'wrong' with Norton oil tank, just it don't help
take on likes of Ducati 1198's.

Do you know that the mid spine tubes go all the way though
spine, and there are leaks under the mid spine plate juncture
of the stem brace tube, also at tube tops where shocks mount.

Crude measures imply about 2.5 quart capacity in spine and both
frame loops. I need to flush insides some how so will know
actual volume, some day.

OIF removes oil tank view blocker and a quart of oil mass. Prior Peel
had an issue to get oil hot as I shower in for moisture cook off.
There is rather more surface area in whole frame to cool.

I've taken more holes off of past Peel than most ever
run with. Here's some of her old holely artifacts.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1039955 ... 1179ooAgWu


Other's have made OIF'd Cod's, I just want to do it with minimal
hoses. But issues arise in my mind by comments of various
lists.

Scavenge pump will push air with oil into the spine volume,
but its only vent is into crank case. Fill cap has gold one way
inward vent valve - for sideways oil spills.
Will this over pressure something or just get relieved
by oil drainage?

Will oil de-gas enough in mild sloped spine before draining down RH
loop into pump?

Will air pumped into spine drain into pump when going
down steep sections?

I intend to run a flag on a fishing pole to be seen over
crests, maybe will have to run an oil snorkel up it too?

hobot

The frame is not too strong, it does flex particulary under race stresses. I'd be concerned about leaks from the brazed joints where you have pipes attached to frame tubes, particualry the smaller diameter tubes. Dreer did a similar experimental frame but relied on a small sump welded to the rear of the main tube which distributed to the oil lines. It has been mentioned there is a lot of fine slag and debris inside the frame tubes and a prefilter would seem neccesary before the input line. Dreer went back to a seperate oil tank, simplicity and convenience prevailed.

Personally, I'd just go for a front mounted oil tank, partially under the motor. This was a recognised race fitment to keep the weight down lower.

Mick

Ugh, Mick, you make good points.
Peel must run on 91 oct and tap water so battery tray and tank
made room for air supply and water tank.

The pivotal physics seems to be whether the scavenge gears will
pump just oil from sump or too much gases along with it.
Would this really stop scavenge side from pumping down sump?

I can also see an issue if the air space at stem moves to
rear spine on nose low or braking states to send air pocket to
rear pump intake.

But I think I eyeballed it to see that even if spine rear is
higher than stem, the oil in all of RH loop is being filled
from the stem spine and its rear riser tube oil level is still above
the pump feed. So air would stay up high. It made a pleasing
fail safe valve placement to me, many weird luck outs in Peels deal.

I've got the intake filter figured out - but frame tube to pump
is not off bottom of frame-tank - its in the middle of
a long essentially vertical tube. But now you
make me think of it, I should sick a magnet just
a bit below and behind pump feed to draw ferric
crap down and away from oil exit. Pull magnet
off and crap can be bumped out or blown out bottom drain.

I had to consider drain plugs in thin steel that get rocks
and logs slide over, loading broken in truck or off roading.

As too the frame, I took great care to only drill inside
sections covered by a factory or my own gussets.
Then the steel tube soldered in self supports its hole.
But your right frame is shockingly thin mild stock.
May two roofing tins thick.

Personally I think there in lies a feature that makes
an isolastic Commando potentially the supreme hard
surface cornering instrument - it can articulate, store
energy and release like rubber band w/o spring back.
Peel's Phase 4 steering mode I also call Sling Shots, or
Ricochet Rabbits, as delivers the harshest G's she ever does,
but its trigger is a power cut right as least traction point,
Zing! What a Feeling!

Peel's OIF is worth ~5 lb removed. Oil filled frame may
also help deaden another level of vibes I couldn't detect prior.

hobot

hobot said:

Ugh, Mick, you make good points.

The pivotal physics seems to be whether the scavenge gears will
pump just oil from sump or too much gases along with it.
Would this really stop scavenge side from pumping down sump?

I can also see an issue if the air space at stem moves to
rear spine on nose low or braking states to send air pocket to
rear pump intake.

Personally I think there in lies a feature that makes
an isolastic Commando potentially the supreme hard
surface cornering instrument - it can articulate, store
energy and release like rubber band w/o spring back.

hobot

Click to expand...

Well, the oil scavenge gears already pump gas. The return rate is about double that of the feed. Bubbles in the return is perfectly normal. Too much gas is going to be a function of the breather arrangement, (see enormous quantity of forum debate on that subject). Its not a problem if you design the venting of the crankcases accordingly. The air pressurisation of the water injection system to the fuel inlets is insignficant to the combustion process and byproducts.

As to the oil fluid movement in the spine being displaced under heavy braking, I'd think by the typical geometry under heavy braking, you'd have to be doing a stunt front stoppie to pull oil away from the rear of the spine, and consider the lower tube holds enough to maintain feed. By the time the spine resumes its normal attitude the oil content will immediately move back to its normal space. Any air caught up in this space is going to swap over to the upper end so fast it won't make any difference to the feed rate.

Dunno about the Commando being the supreme hard cornering instrument....Dunstall, Williams, Maney, Seeley and Caffrey been there and tried that. The Iso's are more of a problem in the inherent store and release of kinetic energy. You can't accomodate the hysteresis in positioning for hard cornering as a beneficial assistance. More over the Iso frame rear end is compromised by the puny swing arm pivot stucture and the narrow space for a suitable wide race tyre. More footprint, more grip, more stress transfer. Comes a point where the Commando frame says "Enough, I'm outta here" usually via a violent front end tank slapper.

Mick

Mick,

I don't want to vent frame tank directly to outside,
I want to suck all excess pressure out the exhaust.
The water injection system has it own air supply
so isolated from engine intake or case pressures.

Encouraging summary on braking and oil in spine inertia effects.
I can't speak for the rest of ya but I find moderns way
too stoppie prone to be a worry of throwing me over
bars, But on Ms Peel its a saving terror to pull down hard and
stay in the saddle. Its dangerous to hop on my SV650
after a flat on Ms Peel.

Forgive my attitude on handling Mick but y'all just
don't know what you are missing out on by a GoldWing
like massive inertial sense of smoothness yet flick able
as an English 10 speed bicycle. I read tech reviews of latest
greatest electro brain and tire aids of best elites in the world
and watch the videos to snicker how limited them fat tire corner
cripples are, completely stuck in Phase two Ho Hum
handling of two tire traction and counter steering.

ABS brakes is only thing that make Peel safer to
fly into transitions of Phase 3 > 4 > 5 handling states.
Each one less and less pilot effort but to keep
enough blood in head to see.

Can ya even conceive how fast powered and leaned
it takes to have ground effects lift-drop air eddies be more
important than tire traction and chassis reaction.
Removing the side covers and stuff behind them
should help Peel even more.

hobot - off to diddle more on Peels deal.