Norton trouble

I don't say that all "limited edition" buyers bought as an "investment". Some may have found that particular variant appealing.

However, the sales idea behind "limited editions" is always to get those who are blinded by the "investment" aspect. Usually "limited editions" come at the end of a product's appeal to the general public and are more often than not the flogging (ambiguous, that one) of a dead horse.
 
kommando said:
The 961 once sorted is a good bike, but that is because of the employees working against what Skinner and Garner were doing in the background. Garner is and was a crook, the 961 is Deer's design and could have been good right from the start but for Garner and Skinner penny pinching. Just look at all the Chinese fake sensors and even suspension products being fitted to save pennies on a premium priced product.
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Most of the helpful employees/mechanics I met left, so looking back now I guess they were treating people like they like to be treated themselves & got a tug if there gestures of goodwill was to great !!! & were maybe frustrated trying to fix things with one arm behind there back
 
Bernhard said:
By your description above SG was crooked to the bone, but I know it is your own opinion, but Skinner I think did not do any of the above, it was all SG.
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Yeah, but quite frankly, as #2 to SG, there’s no way SS could have been so close to SG for so long and not know that all was not above board and ‘clean’.

I’ve met him and liked him, but he has to be guilty of being complicit IMHO.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Yeah, but quite frankly, as #2 to SG, there’s no way SS could have been so close to SG for so long and not know that all was not above board and ‘clean’.

I’ve met him and liked him, but he has to be guilty of being complicit IMHO.
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Agree Nigel, likewise
 
Bernhard said:
SG kept records???? It was the taxman who was his downfall. He kept a compicated web of different companies that would probably take the highest skilled accountant to untangle, if at all to most peoples satisfaction. I really suspect he has more than one secret squirrel account that he is keeping close to his chest.
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Most probably in the states hid behind the Norton America LLc, the registered address of this company has an interesting history as well, what happened to that money? If you were going to hide money it would either be in Gold or $$. Not the £ or Euro.
 
ZFD said:
I don't say that all "limited edition" buyers bought as an "investment". Some may have found that particular variant appealing.

However, the sales idea behind "limited editions" is always to get those who are blinded by the "investment" aspect. Usually "limited editions" come at the end of a product's appeal to the general public and are more often than not the flogging (ambiguous, that one) of a dead horse.
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I think my Commando was a 'bargain', not an 'investment', and cost me about the same as my most recent bike purchase. Thanks for the insult anyway.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Yeah, but quite frankly, as #2 to SG, there’s no way SS could have been so close to SG for so long and not know that all was not above board and ‘clean’.

I’ve met him and liked him, but he has to be guilty of being complicit IMHO.
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It is all very strange. I met #1 and #2 for the 1st time at the November 2017 launch which is also where I first met Clem. I made a decision that evening to order a CR but it took a good couple of weeks before I could get anyone to actually take a deposit off me. When I saw my bike in the build phase I offered to pay for it in full as it was only a week or two away from being completed but again that was declined, I didn't get the impression at any point that Norton were just chasing cash. My bike was ready in the timeframe promised, and the few occasions that I have had to make (petty) warranty claims on expensive parts there was no quibble. It is all very strange.
 
I agree Mark, my own experience was not dissimilar.

Maybe, if the management were raking in millions from banks, and grants, and investors, etc, us paying punters were, frankly, not very high priority...?
 
Fast Eddie said:
I agree Mark, my own experience was not dissimilar.

Maybe, if the management were raking in millions from banks, and grants, and investors, etc, us paying punters were, frankly, not very high priority...?
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Well, from the above it appears that they were not after customers! Or were they? They could, for all we know have promised the same bike to 5 people.
 
MxMartin said:
It is all very strange. I met #1 and #2 for the 1st time at the November 2017 launch which is also where I first met Clem. I made a decision that evening to order a CR but it took a good couple of weeks before I could get anyone to actually take a deposit off me. When I saw my bike in the build phase I offered to pay for it in full as it was only a week or two away from being completed but again that was declined, I didn't get the impression at any point that Norton were just chasing cash. My bike was ready in the timeframe promised, and the few occasions that I have had to make (petty) warranty claims on expensive parts there was no quibble. It is all very strange.
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I think that was the timing though, we were fortunate to order when they had the cash. Saying that, my bike had a few jobs completed under warranty and an oil/filter change and was paid for a couple of hours before they went into admin. So right up until the finish, I have zero complaints about service. Very lucky I guess compared to some.

The bike is running really well, took it to work the last friday, had a nice cuban prior to the ride home on emptier roads. I am trying to enjoy myself as much as poss just now
 
Welshrugby said:
I think that was the timing though, we were fortunate to order when they had the cash
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A classic Ponzi scheme relies on a certain proportion of punters to be satisfied, that is how the rest of the fleeced punters and commentators who are aware of the scam are ignored, there is always someone to refute the bad stories. Assuming a build of 2500 bikes we have 1500 satisfied customers, 1000 who sold quickly and got out, plus 466 who paid monies upfront and are the losers. Add onto that the pensioners, workforce, suppliers, banks and Govt to see the full scale.
 
kommando said:
A classic Ponzi scheme relies on a certain proportion of punters to be satisfied, that is how the rest of the fleeced punters and commentators who are aware of the scam are ignored, there is always someone to refute the bad stories. Assuming a build of 2500 bikes we have 1500 satisfied customers, 1000 who sold quickly and got out, plus 466 who paid monies upfront and are the losers. Add onto that the pensioners, workforce, suppliers, banks and Govt to see the full scale.
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That’s a rather negative way of looking at it Kommando...

However, your description does seem to fit the events very well !
 
The editor of Norton Owners Club magazine Roadholder states in the April eddition; "The revered Norton marque has taken another bashing and it's interesting
to see how things pan-out in the future. Marques come and go in all fields of commerce but in this case, I think there is stumbling block in any future resurrected
Norton endeavour". Not sure he appreciates the scale of the £28 million swindle including conning 426 (?) pensionioers out of their life savings?
 
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MxMartin said:
It is all very strange. I met #1 and #2 for the 1st time at the November 2017 launch which is also where I first met Clem. I made a decision that evening to order a CR but it took a good couple of weeks before I could get anyone to actually take a deposit off me. When I saw my bike in the build phase I offered to pay for it in full as it was only a week or two away from being completed but again that was declined, I didn't get the impression at any point that Norton were just chasing cash. My bike was ready in the timeframe promised, and the few occasions that I have had to make (petty) warranty claims on expensive parts there was no quibble. It is all very strange.
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You were lucky. According to "Superbike":
"Of the amount owed to unsecured creditors [...], £3,375,167 (3.3 million) has been listed as the amount of money paid to Norton by customers in the form of deposits for motorcycles. This amount comes in the form of monies paid to Norton by 466 customers."

A friend wrote:
"Monies paid to Garner as deposits averages £7,243 for each of the 466 people, which suggests that many may have paid up-front in full.
Given that irregularities at Donington were common knowledge for several years, how can suppliers and customers be so blind?"

So it is obvious not all offers to pay up front were rejected. In fact 3.375 million Pounds were happily taken off customers full well knowing these were unlikely to ever get anything for their money.
 
It appears that the lost deposits all occurred in the last few months of trading. There have been a few recent cases (2019) i've heard of where customers paid, got fed up waiting and got the deposit repaid. There are a few cases i've heard of where customers had ongoing issues with their new bikes and had their money returned in full (after legal threats of course). I don't know the facts as yet about the pension money and what type of risk they thought (or knew) they were investing in. Since the outbreak of this virus i've lost around 20% of my savings, and that's in low/medium risk investments, I might get lucky and see it return I might not.

As for these Superbike articles, I hadn't ever heard of this publication until this thread. I took a look today at some of it's bike reviews and they look to be the same'ol drivle, cut/copied/pasted from countless other similar reviews. What suddenly makes this publication's review of the Norton collapse credible and why oh why would a publication like this have any interest in the ins and outs of a company like Norton? I'm still on the fence, my hunch is that SG/Norton had seriously overspent on progressing the V4 and 650 and had high expectation on an investor stepping up, when that didn't materialise the end was inevitable. When I first met SG he looked like a man in control of his destiny, when I spoke briefly to him at last Septembers bike night he looked and sounded as though he were at death's door, it is apparent (in hindsight) that the two years in-between had taken it's toll on the guy.
 
Bernhard said:
Well, from the above it appears that they were not after customers! Or were they? They could, for all we know have promised the same bike to 5 people.
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Are you seriously suggesting that there is any possibility that my bike, built January 2018, could have been sold 5 times over and I was the lucky one to get it, and the other 4 went home to cry in their milk and we never got to hear about it? What on earth are you smoking!
 
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