Norton Production Racer

lcrken · Dec 21, 2012

Rohan said:
Catalog from who - or where. ?
We are non the wiser ??
Doesn't even mention the roller bearing.
Nor the false info ye preacheth. ?

Just a heavier duty ball bearing.
Ball bearing was used on the timing side for quite some decades...

That's the first page from Chapter 3 of the Dunstall tuning manual for Nortons, and you're quite right, it never mentions "Superblends", and doesn't talk about "barrel shaped rollers", or any of that sort of info. It was written before the Commandos were upgraded with the NJ306E, aka Superblend, while they were still using the R&M MRJ A30 roller bearing on the drive side and ball bearing on the timing side.

Ken

Hobot · Dec 21, 2012

they were still using the R&M MRJ A30 roller bearing on the drive side and ball bearing on the timing side.

Ken

This is how Peel was done and worked a treat tolerating hard use and the stuck throttle rpm event which took out other stuff on Peels crank ends so knocked them out of Peel's cases and now they run in Wesley's '71. If these old style rollers and ball bearing are so detrimental and wear prone I sure can't tell. I wonder what TC used?

Matt Spencer · Dec 23, 2012

Technical Information ;
FAG Rolling Bearings
Fundamentals · Types · Designs

http://www.m3.tuc.gr/ANAGNWSTHRIO/STOIX ... ARINGS.pdf

Brooking 850 · Dec 23, 2012

Matt, barrel shaped rollers indeed, better check what model my new ones are for Bike # 2 !!!!
Good document
Regards Mike

Rohan · Dec 23, 2012

Commando FAG bearings are NJ306E
NJ type is cylindrical roller bearings, according to that data sheet.
306 not covered in that data sheet.

Series 202, 203
Barrel rollers.
Speed Suitability low to medium.
Non-separable.
Suitable for automotive use... ???

Hmmm, no mention of 306E here.
Anyone got a recent 'Superblend' they could photo or measure ?

This is a 306, cylindrical roller.
306 just visible on the far rim.
May look a bit distorted, but perfect cylindrical rollers.
Ala early dommie engine, 60 years ago driveside main bearing.

Matt Spencer · Dec 24, 2012

Oh My God ! . . . a JAPANESE bearing . . . . In A NORTON ! :shock: :shock: . shame . shame .

Now real ones may cost twice as much , but WOULD you take youre Missus to Mc Donalds . :shock: .

pierodn · Dec 25, 2012

Wrote Rohan: Anyone got a recent 'Superblend' they could photo or measure ?

Here below the crankshaft bearing I bought from Andover.

Hobot · Dec 25, 2012

Shim need depends on assembled measured crank shifting slack which I've read should be limited to about 0.015" ball park.

Onder · Dec 25, 2012

Japanese bearing fright? Take a look and you will see the
Andover FAG is made in INDIA! Just got one from Hemmings
and mine is too. There is a offering on ebay for same made in
GERMANY at 140 dollars. Or when I called my local bearing house
and they told me I could have one for 217 USD and there 6 are 60
available in their warehouse.
Well Andover has a reasonable level of reliability and if Mick
sells them you are pretty safe but one does wonder.

Brooking 850 · Dec 25, 2012

Last FAG roller bearing I purchased just recently to fit to the layshaft of the g/box of Bike # 2 was also made in India with what looks like a polymer type bearing cage and had me thinking???
As the box will sit on the shelf as a spare as I have a TTI on the way, won't get a chance to test it!
Regards Mike

Cheesy · Dec 25, 2012

Brooking 850 said:
Last FAG roller bearing I purchased just recently to fit to the layshaft of the g/box of Bike # 2 was also made in India with what looks like a polymer type bearing cage and had me thinking???
As the box will sit on the shelf as a spare as I have a TTI on the way, won't get a chance to test it!
Regards Mike

Send it to me if you want, just kidding. I have just put the same bearing in mine, the plastic cage is probably the best option for the gearbox, no corrosion issues.

For what it is worth some time ago I did some consultancy work on some bearing failures, one interesting thing to come out of it was that the supposedly better Timken bearings had more sulphide inclusions than the NSK bearings, ie the steel melt was not as clean. The other interesting thing was that all the bearings failed at similar times regardless of where they were made, brand etc.

Rohan · Dec 27, 2012

Apparently the reason the japanese auto industry can offer a 5 year/100,000 km warranty (on cars) is that the bearing quality is known to be sufficiently good to allow this.

I can recall when all (external) bearings came with a grease nipple, and 100,000 would have sounded like an impossible dream. (so have the bearings improved, or the grease.. ?).

Thanks pierodn for the superblend pic.
Lotta rollers there, isn't there.
Do they still come apart ?

Cheesy · Dec 28, 2012

Rohan said:
Apparently the reason the japanese auto industry can offer a 5 year/100,000 km warranty (on cars) is that the bearing quality is known to be sufficiently good to allow this.

I can recall when all (external) bearings came with a grease nipple, and 100,000 would have sounded like an impossible dream. (so have the bearings improved, or the grease.. ?).

Thanks pierodn for the superblend pic.
Lotta rollers there, isn't there.
Do they still come apart ?

If you can get hold of a bearing book from the 70s you could easily compare the static and dynamic load ratings for a given bearing size and type.

pierodn · Dec 28, 2012

Rohan said:
Do they still come apart ?

I dont know, is first time i buy this bearing, is the first time i change the crankshaft bearing.
I hope they do not come apart! they are not very cheap.
However I do not trust too much of a item made in india, but they are FAG!
Ciao.
Piero

acotrel · Dec 28, 2012

You guys just don't get it. The reason the Japanese are world leaders in engineered products is that their industry was rebuilt under the Marshall Plan after WW2 with MODERN production line equipment. Demings went from the US to Japan and taught them about Total Quality Management. Their culture is basically authoritarian however the controls are internalised. The result is engineering excellence. I use Japanese parts wherever I can, except where they can be seen and easily identified as Japanese parts on a British bike.

Hobot · Dec 28, 2012

Alan you have touched on a nerve I've seen very few touch concerning outside investment influences on the collapse of British bike and car companies.

pommie john · Dec 28, 2012

lcrken said:
That's the first page from Chapter 3 of the Dunstall tuning manual for Nortons, and you're quite right, it never mentions "Superblends", and doesn't talk about "barrel shaped rollers", or any of that sort of info. It was written before the Commandos were upgraded with the NJ306E, aka Superblend, while they were still using the R&M MRJ A30 roller bearing on the drive side and ball bearing on the timing side.

Ken

That's what I've been using in my Commando racer for years. I have a FAG NJ306 in the drive side and a ball race in the timing side, pegged in place as per the Dunstall tuning manual. Up until recently the drive side bearing was a japanese NSK with a steel cage. I only changed it for the FAG because the NSK rusted during a lengthy rebuild.

pommie john · Dec 28, 2012

acotrel said:
You guys just don't get it. The reason the Japanese are world leaders in engineered products is that their industry was rebuilt under the Marshall Plan after WW2 with MODERN production line equipment. Demings went from the US to Japan and taught them about Total Quality Management. Their culture is basically authoritarian however the controls are internalised. The result is engineering excellence. I use Japanese parts wherever I can, except where they can be seen and easily identified as Japanese parts on a British bike.

Spot on.

One other thing that's my pet theory about the demise of the British bike industry is the reason for the lack of investment by management. Britain was virtually bankrupt at the end of the war and spending heaps of money to keep up with "inferior" competition from Japan was unthinkable.
My parents were kids during the war spent the rest of their lives being careful with money, food, everything. Remember that in Britain, food rationing did not finish until 1954, that's 9 years of rationing after the war was over. Rationing was ended in Germany before it was in Britain. The whole country was in a mindset of shortages and saving. No one with that mindset is going to spend money on factories and investment.

just my take on it.

pierodn · Dec 29, 2012

acotrel said:
You guys just don't get it. The reason the Japanese are world leaders in engineered products is that their industry was rebuilt under the Marshall Plan after WW2 with MODERN production line equipment. Demings went from the US to Japan and taught them about Total Quality Management. Their culture is basically authoritarian however the controls are internalised. The result is engineering excellence. I use Japanese parts wherever I can, except where they can be seen and easily identified as Japanese parts on a British bike.

Dear All,
Take all notes that all the industries of cars and motorcycles in the world, including Germany and Japan, will hold up, as always, with State aid!!!!!!
When finish state aid those industries fail.
Ciao
Piero

grandpaul · Dec 29, 2012

pierodn said:
Take all notes that all the industries of cars and motorcycles in the world, including Germany and Japan, will hold up, as always, with State aid!!!!!!
When finish state aid those industries fail.

EXACTLY!

Norton Production Racer

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