Newbie at large

Hi all,

Most of the purchase stories on here start with late night Craigslist searching but lately I've come up with a number of great finds through word of mouth. The owner was doing some work on my house for me and noticed my expanding collection of motorcycles. He mentioned having a bike or two collecting rust in his barn. I told him if he wanted to let em go cheap he should let me know. Needless to say we worked out a deal and I rescued this Commando from further oxidation.

Here she is in her natural setting.

IMG_2004 by BioPunk42, on Flickr

Here she is as I pulled into the driveway of her new home.

IMG_2206 by BioPunk42, on Flickr

I'll try to upload photos as my dad and I go through the rebuild process but mostly I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions. I own a newer model Guzzi and Triumph as well as several older Jap bikes but this is a first for me.

My first question is how do I identify exactly what this thing is (it's missing the VIN plate on the head). Owner claimed it was a 69 Commando but he wasn't much use beyond that as he bought it as a project in 1977 and never touched it. I'd like to know where to find a frame number and engine number so I can ensure they match so I can go about obtaining a title for the frame.

Cheers,
Kyle

Based on some of the previous posts I was able to identify the following but it almost looks maliciously scratched out... I'm suspicious now but I wonder if this sort of wear has been seen before.


image by BioPunk42, on Flickr

I was able to make out the following: 20M**? / 131549

Unless I am mistaken this number would make the bike a 1969 as the PO indicated.

Still not sure where to look for a frame or tranny number, it would be nice if they were more legible.

Cheers,
Kyle

Not a 69. Most likely 71 or 72. Engine has breather off the drive side, you can see the hose, it comes off the end of the cam. The engine number will probably tell you what year it is if the engine hasn't been changed. I guess no title? Check the gearbox number also, on the top, easy to see. Andover Norton has a site with the different models/years you can look at.

Looks like about $4-8 grand depending on where you want to end up. Bring it back. Welcome.

Dave
69S

Hi, welcome. Let's hope that it doesn't include a theft history. You might want to get clear registration before investing time/money...

biopunk said:

I was able to make out the following: 20M**? / 131549

Click to expand...

20M3S / 131549 is 1969. Probably built as a 750 "S Type" originally, because 131549 would be too early for it to have been a Roadster Edit: correction (1970 not '71) model although it has the low level exhaust system and later model Roadster seat.

biopunk said:

Still not sure where to look for a frame or tranny number, it would be nice if they were more legible.

Click to expand...

If the certification plate is missing, then basically, the frame's "identity" has been lost, however the 6-digit plate number would normally match the 6-digits of the engine number (131549) and hopefully, you may also find the same 6-digit number stamped across the top of the upper gearbox mounting boss?

Not a 69. Most likely 71 or 72. Engine has breather off the drive side, you can see the hose, it comes off the end of the cam.

Click to expand...

Er.....Dave take a look at your own '69. Does it not have a timed breather off the cam? All Commandos had the timed breather until 1972.

This one has the center mount oil tank, so it likely started life as a '69 S also. Headlight mounts have been changed. Still has the pre-'71 triple trees. Wrong seat. Appears to have the metalflake silver '69 'S' taillight, pre-'71 rear wheel.

This looks like a real mongrel of early 750 hardware. The engine looks to be 69-70, but very suspect with the attempt to disguise the s/n. I hope for your sake it wasn't stolen. Maybe the trans s/n will add another dimension. The seat is later years. The rest of the hardware looks to be 69-70. Oil tank and side stand are definitely of those years. I think the silver tail light housing was only '69. The rear wheel isn't stock. The rim looks smaller than 19" and the rim doesn't match the front. With a lot of clean up and work, you'll have a decent 750. Let's just hope that it's legitimate and you can go forward with the project.

Ron L said:

Er.....Dave take a look at your own '69. Does it not have a timed breather off the cam? All Commandos had the timed breather until 1972.

This one has the center mount oil tank, so it likely started life as a '69 S also. Headlight mounts have been changed. Still has the pre-'71 triple trees. Wrong seat. Appears to have the metalflake silver '69 'S' taillight, pre-'71 rear wheel.

Click to expand...

Well, I didn't see that stuff earlier, all I saw was the general picture, the other pics came later than what I posted, must have crossed. It certainly doesn't have the 69/70 halo headlamp and the seat is definitely not a 69/70, so if I didn't have the number, it would be hard to tell. But with a 131 number, yes, it would be a 69, must be a mongrel. And yes, my bike has the cam breather. The closest number I know of is 131403 which was a March 69, ricewind in OZ has that one in FF red. Mine is a 132 April 69, so that pretty much dates it.

I hope he can get a title for it. It looks in rougher shape than mine was.

Dave
69S

Ron L said:

Not a 69. Most likely 71 or 72. Engine has breather off the drive side, you can see the hose, it comes off the end of the cam.

Click to expand...

Er.....Dave take a look at your own '69. Does it not have a timed breather off the cam? All Commandos had the timed breather until 1972.

This one has the center mount oil tank, so it likely started life as a '69 S also. Headlight mounts have been changed. Still has the pre-'71 triple trees. Wrong seat. Appears to have the metalflake silver '69 'S' taillight, pre-'71 rear wheel.

Click to expand...

+1

Much rust, i like this bike.
Piero

Thanks for all the info guys, I'm still looking for the frame number (above the gearbox mounting boss? Is that the mount just beneath the oil tank?)

Much rust indeed, I'll make the calls today to see whether it is possible to get this thing titled in this shape. Depending on the hoops I'd have to jump through it may be a lost cause, in which case there may be a lot of parts about to hit ebay...

There is no 'frame number' per se. There is supposed to be a "compliance" plate with the number and manufacture date on the headstock right behind the headlamp shell. Then there's the number on the engine and on top of the gearbox. As far as I know when they came from the factory they all had the same number 131xxx but the engine had the 20M3S (for camshaft points) prefix.

There are ways to get titles for it if not from your state. Do a search on the forum here, there have been several threads on it.



Dave
69S

Absolutely vandalized serial number. I hope it doesn't become an issue.

In North Carolina, they'd immediately impound the bike and you'd have zilch.

Good pictures. It looks almost excited to have escaped death in the second. Yeah the suns shining on the better side of seat and tank but it reminds me of stopping for a stray dog and saying load up your going home with me.

So far my inquires with the Department of Revenue and Department of Motor Vehicles have me a little less than optimistic. I gave very very little for the bike but have lofty plans for her once I obtain ownership (title). Does anyone have first hand experience with the Missouri system, it seems like they may be a bunch of sticklers. I'm currently considering filing for an Abandoned Property lien sale but I may be making this harder than it really is.

The PO gave me the name of the PPO (first owner I think) and I'm also considering trying to contact him to get a title re-issued then signing it off to me, sort of a pain in the arse but I'm not seeing lots of options. :|

I'm pretty sure there are some states that will give you a title for a fee sight unseen as long as it's not on the stolen list. Vermont comes to mind, but like I say, this has been hashed over before, do a search, sometimes even google is better than the forum search, or do a google 'accessnorton title' search. But having a screwed up number won't help. Also, the less you tell the MV people, the better it is. You can get the certificate plates for $20 and put the engine number on it less the 20M3S plus Feb 1969 then rivet it to the frame in the proper place. Don't say anything to the DMV more than the title was lost.

If you could get anything out of the original owner that would be best.

Dmv s have been a little gunshy since the Carroll Shelby incident was exposed by the LA times:

Counterfeit Cobras[edit]

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times exposed a Carroll Shelby scheme[10] to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection.[11] Shelby later admitted[11] that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and '92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

Boogered serial numbers is bad juju. Pray that you get a clean title from a PO. Otherwise Vermont is your best bet.

But it depends on where you are going to get it retitled. As mentioned NC is bad. CA too. And Ohio. And...

Have you put your location in your profile yet?

"20M3S / 131549 is 1969. Probably built as a 750 "S Type" originally, because 131549 would be too early for it to have been a Roadster (1971) model although it has the low level exhaust system and later model Roadster seat."

LAB - is your understanding that roadsters were not built till 1971? My bike is June 1970 and It was assembled as a roadster with lower pipes when I bought it. I have assumed that it was built that way.

biopunk said:

Thanks for all the info guys, I'm still looking for the frame number (above the gearbox mounting boss? Is that the mount just beneath the oil tank?)

Much rust indeed, I'll make the calls today to see whether it is possible to get this thing titled in this shape. Depending on the hoops I'd have to jump through it may be a lost cause, in which case there may be a lot of parts about to hit ebay...

Click to expand...

I dont understand the licencing system in USA with its "title" complexities....... You say that you will/may part it out on ebay and scatter the parts wherever... So if you where the/an ebay customer and bought 3000 individual pieces of a norton from around the world.............. How would you get it licenced/titled/legally on the road in your name ?????????

For example when many parts are "acquired" to build a hot rod, custom car or bike from nothing how are they "approved" for use on the road..

olChris said:

biopunk said:

Thanks for all the info guys, I'm still looking for the frame number (above the gearbox mounting boss? Is that the mount just beneath the oil tank?)

Much rust indeed, I'll make the calls today to see whether it is possible to get this thing titled in this shape. Depending on the hoops I'd have to jump through it may be a lost cause, in which case there may be a lot of parts about to hit ebay...

Click to expand...

I dont understand the licencing system in USA with its "title" complexities....... You say that you will/may part it out on ebay and scatter the parts wherever... So if you where the/an ebay customer and bought 3000 individual pieces of a norton from around the world.............. How would you get it licenced/titled/legally on the road in your name ?????????

For example when many parts are "acquired" to build a hot rod, custom car or bike from nothing how are they "approved" for use on the road..

Click to expand...

First question: FRAME serial number rules. Titles are (in some states) available for vintage vehicles. Some states just a bill of sale and registration (licensing) is sufficient for the vehicle. My state will issue a title after a LEO inspects/verifies numbers.

Second Q: a homebuilt hotrod can be registered, but some states make it very hard, (safety/emissions), but if you buy a frame, it'll come with a Certificate of Origin from the maker. Some states are much more reasonable.