Narley ports for High HP Nort roadracer.

Fast Eddie · Oct 11, 2015

acotrel said:
The 4 valve per cylinder Rickman heads did not make Triumph 650s go much faster.

Oh yes they did. But only after folk caught on and realised to sort out cam, carbs and exhausts accordingly.

At Rohan, you're right about the TSS, I had a one for quite a while, it was very fast, in a different league altogether to the 2 valve Bonnie.

SteveA · Oct 13, 2015

acotrel said:
The 4 valve per cylinder Rickman heads did not make Triumph 650s go much faster.

May be true, but when fully developed by Nourish into the later 'Weslakes' with a bit more capacity...they do...

Not sure this is a useful comment anyway, surely the tracking of the the XR750 development is a proven 2 valve direction.

SteveA · Oct 13, 2015

Fullauto said:
Show me the dyno figures and how it will benefit road riders and I'll price it up.

Might not benefit all racers either!

Its a tricky one, but when you start messing with external dimensions to achieve your aims then you may fall foul of classic/vintage race eligibility regs.....

...of course you may not find that out until you have invested and start winning (or someone thinks you might) and someone complains!

8500 is going to be enough surely......thats about where the needle on my short stroke was when I missed a gear at Snetterton last week..... :?

jseng1 · Oct 13, 2015

SteveA said:
Fullauto said:

Show me the dyno figures and how it will benefit road riders and I'll price it up.

Click to expand...

Might not benefit all racers either!

Its a tricky one, but when you start messing with external dimensions to achieve your aims then you may fall foul of classic/vintage race eligibility regs.....

...of course you may not find that out until you have invested and start winning (or someone thinks you might) and someone complains!

8500 is going to be enough surely......thats about where the needle on my short stroke was when I missed a gear at Snetterton last week..... :?

Steve

Someone mentioned that a couple Norts were doing well in UK classic roadracing (an 850 and a short stroke). Got any info on that?

See Garth below - He's the one with the Narley ports. He says his new Norton roadracer is his fastest yet (with the Narley ports). You also need a big cam for these ports. He's using a JS3 which has the same lift and duration as the D+ but uses BSA lifters. Photo below is of his earlier ride before the Narley ports.

Narley ports for High HP Nort roadracer.

As for rules. I asked AHRMA about adding weld to the head. I sent them the photo below of a Maney stage 3 head with exterior welding. They said it was OK. I know that Maney stage 3 heads have been using in UK classic racing.

SteveA · Oct 13, 2015

jseng1 said:
Steve

Someone mentioned that a couple Norts were doing well in UK classic roadracing (an 850 and a short stroke). Got any info on that?

Don't know who might have mentioned it Jim.

I have done several CRMC meetings this year riding my short stroke Rickman Norton and my BSA Fury/Yamaha Single. (fullest season I have run since '79, and I have to say with a new build over 6 years, after first testing at Pembrey in April and some 'teething' problems at Cadwell I have been pleased with how it has run)

First race for the 750 was Anglesey, Wales in June, and with points at Anglesey/Brands/Lydden I get second in the CRMC 1300 twins championship to Alan Foster, also on a Rickman with an 850. So that may be us. But as always its a question of good/bad luck and who shows up

.

There is a faster rider (Mike Bevan) out with BHR riding a 750 Seeley Norton, I finished second to him in my first and only race meeting with BHR this year.

But the fastest 750 Seeley Norton riders in the UK this year have been father and son Bruno and Steve Perlinski from Lille in France. They mainly ran F750, and Steve in particular logged some good finishes, but like most young bloods finished fewer races than Bruno....but I encouraged them to run out in 1300 twins as well, fortunatey for me and Alan they they didn't until later in the year :wink:

I am sure you know or know of Bruno as he uses your parts.

Will be tear down time some time over the winter, sooner rather than later makes sense because selling our UK home and moving to France will take my main attention till at least mid next year, sold board went up this morning!

Jagbruno · Oct 14, 2015

Just edan extra bit of info, Steve (the son) Perlinski's engine is a 270° while Bruno's is a 360°. Both bikes are otherwise identical Seeleys, built, prepared, maintained and raced by Bruno who is an outstanding mecanic.

SteveA · Oct 14, 2015

Jagbruno said:
Just edan extra bit of info, Steve (the son) Perlinski's engine is a 270° while Bruno's is a 360°. Both bikes are otherwise identical Seeleys, built, prepared, maintained and raced by Bruno who is an outstanding mecanic.

Bruno told me that he had kept the crank (and nothing else) from the bike he bought from Dave Watson (ridden by Gary Twaites), so if he is using that it would also make it a short stroke 270.

jseng1 · Oct 17, 2015

SteveA said:
Jagbruno said:

Just edan extra bit of info, Steve (the son) Perlinski's engine is a 270° while Bruno's is a 360°. Both bikes are otherwise identical Seeleys, built, prepared, maintained and raced by Bruno who is an outstanding mecanic.

Click to expand...

Bruno told me that he had kept the crank (and nothing else) from the bike he bought from Dave Watson (ridden by Gary Twaites), so if he is using that it would also make it a short stroke 270.

Bruno is getting a custom stage 3 cam for the 90 deg crank as well as some lightweight pistons & rods. Should be interesting because he's a good machinist and knows what he's doing (from what I've seen).

The results are in for Barber and a handful of Yamaha twins are beating the fewer Nortons that entered. Yamaha twins were never a problem when I was racing so there must have been a lot of recent development to make them faster. I don't know what their specs are but something needs to be done. A fully developed short stroke Norton should achieve 80+ HP. And there should be more HP yet with the Narley ports and the rest of the XR 750 Nortonized specs. Someone needs to step up - though I'm sure Doug is doing his best and I'm surprised he didn't beat them (Go Doug!!).

See one of the Dastardly Yamahas below. This is Brian Filo's bike and what makes it interesting to me is the Clawson Honda of Fresno sticker on the fairing - this is where I live.

SteveA · Oct 18, 2015

jseng1 said:
Bruno is getting a custom stage 3 cam for the 90 deg crank as well as some lightweight pistons & rods. Should be interesting because he's a good machinist and knows what he's doing (from what I've seen).

Bruno build bikes for himself and his son and others, if you look at the detailed results for the CRMC F750, you will see that Bruno finished every race held for the class this year, as did team mate Daniel Thiery, and Bruno's son Steve was only limited by 'youthful enthusiam', meaning that DNFs were when he fell, rather than the bike stopping.....that certainly is impressive by anyone's standards....yes, it does look as if Bruno knows what he is doing

I surprised myself by checking my own statistics to see that I have had 35 race finishes this year!, 22 on the Rickman Norton 750 Short Stroke, which is not bad for a bike built over 6 years, first run in March this year and first raced in May, with 8 race finishes in its first race weekend and placing 2nd in a championship, a 4th Overall in a wet open 1300 Classics championship race and 6th in that championship, with only 3 finishes over the season....guess I am happy with that

jseng1 · Oct 19, 2015

SteveA said:
jseng1 said:

Bruno is getting a custom stage 3 cam for the 90 deg crank as well as some lightweight pistons & rods. Should be interesting because he's a good machinist and knows what he's doing (from what I've seen).

Click to expand...

Bruno build bikes for himself and his son and others, if you look at the detailed results for the CRMC F750, you will see that Bruno finished every race held for the class this year, as did team mate Daniel Thiery, and Bruno's son Steve was only limited by 'youthful enthusiam', meaning that DNFs were when he fell, rather than the bike stopping.....that certainly is impressive by anyone's standards....yes, it does look as if Bruno knows what he is doing

I surprised myself by checking my own statistics to see that I have had 35 race finishes this year!, 22 on the Rickman Norton 750 Short Stroke, which is not bad for a bike built over 6 years, first run in March this year and first raced in May, with 8 race finishes in its first race weekend and placing 2nd in a championship, a 4th Overall in a wet open 1300 Classics championship race and 6th in that championship, with only 3 finishes over the season....guess I am happy with that

35 races is a heck of a lot for a year. What all have you done to the shortstroke motor?

SteveA · Oct 20, 2015

jseng1 said:
SteveA said:

jseng1 said:

Bruno is getting a custom stage 3 cam for the 90 deg crank as well as some lightweight pistons & rods. Should be interesting because he's a good machinist and knows what he's doing (from what I've seen).

Click to expand...

Bruno build bikes for himself and his son and others, if you look at the detailed results for the CRMC F750, you will see that Bruno finished every race held for the class this year, as did team mate Daniel Thiery, and Bruno's son Steve was only limited by 'youthful enthusiam', meaning that DNFs were when he fell, rather than the bike stopping.....that certainly is impressive by anyone's standards....yes, it does look as if Bruno knows what he is doing

I surprised myself by checking my own statistics to see that I have had 35 race finishes this year!, 22 on the Rickman Norton 750 Short Stroke, which is not bad for a bike built over 6 years, first run in March this year and first raced in May, with 8 race finishes in its first race weekend and placing 2nd in a championship, a 4th Overall in a wet open 1300 Classics championship race and 6th in that championship, with only 3 finishes over the season....guess I am happy with that

Click to expand...

35 races is a heck of a lot for a year. What all have you done to the shortstroke motor?

24 race starts and 22 race finishes on the Norton, 1 race dnf due to mechanical, a carb fell off, 1 due to my head being somewhere else....

I checked the tappets, once, tightened the odd fastener, wiped off a lot of oil...mainly between races....looked at the plugs and concluded nothing much!....changed jets and moved the needles a couple of times, removed the timing cover to fit helicoils in the ignition plate holes....backed off the timing advance a couple of degrees....not much effect....besides that I did tyre pressures changed oil, filter, tyres, changed gearing a couple of times and adjusted the chain....put in some better brake pads...adjusted suspension once, worried a lot....smiled a bit...

It still clicks from the valve gear when I turn it over by hand!

Remember that I had intended to start racing it at Cadwell and had a timing pick up torn off by the belt pully keeper falling off so did not race it that weekend, so its first race at Anglesey was in June, which gave 8 finishes in 2 days (and 7 race starts in one day to complete 4 races due to red flags!).

More frustrating is the BSA Fury/Yamaha that I bought as a going concern has been entered in more races than the Norton this year but gave me a bunch of DNS and DNFs, to net 13 finishes, but we are making progress with that.....and when it goes well it really is fun to ride, if a bit short of horses, that will be out next year as well, with new cam and exhaust.

Season will be shorter for me, probably not starting at all until Cadwell in June due to relocation. So in reality this was probably as many races in a year as I will ever ride.

Off season Norton strip is to check wear and improve oil containment (I hope).

Junk yard Dawg · Oct 20, 2015

I find this constant search for HP very interesting , as I have that need also. I have a Norton 850 Mark 2 , but also race AHRMA in F750 and have won the number one plate many times in my time. I use an XS650 based engine with all the usual mods , but have found some success with my mistakes and trial and error over the years. Shear high HP is not always the answer , as one must be able to leave the gas on longer and get it on sooner to navigate a race track. Handling is by far the important factor along with good low end power to allow early corner throttle up . Shear port air flow volume and air speed do not always work in harmony. A good velocity with decent air flow volume will get it done. Reliable build and good power works most of the time. My bike makes about 69-72 HP on my local dyno depending on the normal factors that day. I get motored often , but not by too much in the overall sense. I have 2 very rare OU-72 heads and also modified stock heads, and the special rare OU heads do not perform much better than a good modified stock head, go figure!!
I also do not raise the compression to high , as this makes the motor work hard , like compressing a heavier spring , plus the extra heat is not good on old motors. The XR oval port was a stroke of genius from Kenny Augustine I believe , and it took the XR to another level, but remember those bikes are rebuild often, especially the lower ends. In my class there are some good running Nortons that are as good as any bike out there. If you want to race a Norton, plan on spending more money to strengthen the main parts , as the original design does not hold up to constant higher RPM, hence the reason I race an XS with a few more modern design elements. I love my commando , as it has soul and charm thought.

John Ellis
AHRMA 5X
F750

jseng1 · Oct 21, 2015

Junk yard Dawg said:
I find this constant search for HP very interesting , as I have that need also. I have a Norton 850 Mark 2 , but also race AHRMA in F750 and have won the number one plate many times in my time. I use an XS650 based engine with all the usual mods , but have found some success with my mistakes and trial and error over the years. Shear high HP is not always the answer , as one must be able to leave the gas on longer and get it on sooner to navigate a race track. Handling is by far the important factor along with good low end power to allow early corner throttle up . Shear port air flow volume and air speed do not always work in harmony. A good velocity with decent air flow volume will get it done. Reliable build and good power works most of the time. My bike makes about 69-72 HP on my local dyno depending on the normal factors that day. I get motored often , but not by too much in the overall sense. I have 2 very rare OU-72 heads and also modified stock heads, and the special rare OU heads do not perform much better than a good modified stock head, go figure!!
I also do not raise the compression to high , as this makes the motor work hard , like compressing a heavier spring , plus the extra heat is not good on old motors. The XR oval port was a stroke of genius from Kenny Augustine I believe , and it took the XR to another level, but remember those bikes are rebuild often, especially the lower ends. In my class there are some good running Nortons that are as good as any bike out there. If you want to race a Norton, plan on spending more money to strengthen the main parts , as the original design does not hold up to constant higher RPM, hence the reason I race an XS with a few more modern design elements. I love my commando , as it has soul and charm thought.

John Ellis
AHRMA 5X
F750

Good to hear you chime in John. I can understand why you are attracted to the X6 650 when you compare the initial cost to a Norton with heavy duty bottom end, Tweaked FA head, lightweight piston and longer rods etc. There were very few XS 650s on the track when I raced, but one that I remember in particular was a tuned XS 650 (750?) in a red trackmaster frame at AMA national BOTT Laguna Seca in the mid 1980s. I asked him about the handling and I remember him saying that the steering rake was adjustable and he would steepen it so it turned quicker to the point where it wobbled at top speed - then he would back it off till it straightened out. I was looking forward to dicing with him but he crashed out. My style was the opposite. My steering was very stable so I could push it to a bit of sliding through a turn and hold it there without having it throwing me off. This worked well on long fast tracks like Willow Springs.

The super stable Norton frame below (I needed the Narley ports with this motor - but that was before the days of oval ports). The pavement grind marks on this frame indicated 53 degrees lean (past 45 deg) when hanging off and suspension bottomed out.

As for Norts. They are more reliable nowdays with the heavy duty bottom ends and the light weight pistons with longer rods. And can rev higher with the bee springs etc. So I think they are ready for more HP.

As for XR 750s - they are very fast (along with fully developed ducs) but they are way too expensive for most of us. The rod roller bearing cage costing $1000 bucks alone.

The fastest bikes I raced against were 1000cc Guzzis, the fully developed twin shock ducs and air cooled monoshock ducs. Some of them were just too fast for me.

John - Whats the diff with the OU heads?

SteveA · Oct 21, 2015

I will remind you guys again, after John's comments, that I based my engine on a Steve Maney crank and cases for a strong bottom end, I do have JSM rods and pistons and the Fullauto head, but mine is unmodified with standard size black diamond valves and beehives. 34mm carbs PW3 cam and about 10.2 compression, because like you John I don't favour high compressions for the reasons you mention but also being old school and having had to push start in my younger days, it just makes life easier all ways round, including no special gas.

The result is a motor that is sweet to ride in a frame that is good on long fast bends, but can be made to work well enough on tighter circuits (best results at Brands and Lydden this year, which both demand rideability).

Junk yard Dawg · Oct 21, 2015

The Yamaha factory in about 1976 developed special heads for Kenny Roberts that came from the factory with 80MM cylinders. Roberts efforts were being taxed as the XR was gaining speed on American dirt tracks. They built 25 of these to meet AMA regulations. The heads arrived un-ported with no valves so tuners and Roberts crew could build to their liking. The heads had more inclined valve angles achieved with shorter rockers , and the chamber was more shallow and a full 80MM all aluminum head versus the stock head that has a casted in iron scull cap for the 650CC bore . The intake and exhaust ports were different with the intake inclined more and the exhaust changed. The stock heads have a terrible exhaust shape. There was also an extra cooling fin. An OU head can be identified by the rocker covers , as it has quantity 4 all alike versus stock which has 3 like covers , and an odd 4 bolt one. I have 2 heads I got from Shell Truet some time ago. I presently am working over one to see if I can get any gains. The cams they used were about .535" lift compared to .430-480" lift we generally use on the stock heads. I had to design pistons and get some rockers made special, as the origionals were junk. Roberts used that engine a few times , and decided he wanted to road race in GP's , so the program was halted before they got it going. I also use Carrillo Rods, as the stockers are weak, install alum. sleeves and get coated by a firm here in the states. Getting rid of the iron liner was huge in regards to heat and long cylinder life. PVL 2 stroke mag mounted on the crank, 38MM carbs bore out some. Can run all year without taking apart , most of the time!!

John Ellis
Junk Yard Dawg
F750

jseng1 · Oct 22, 2015

Junk yard Dawg said:
The Yamaha factory in about 1976 developed special heads for Kenny Roberts that came from the factory with 80MM cylinders. Roberts efforts were being taxed as the XR was gaining speed on American dirt tracks. They built 25 of these to meet AMA regulations. The heads arrived un-ported with no valves so tuners and Roberts crew could build to their liking. The heads had more inclined valve angles achieved with shorter rockers , and the chamber was more shallow and a full 80MM all aluminum head versus the stock head that has a casted in iron scull cap for the 650CC bore . The intake and exhaust ports were different with the intake inclined more and the exhaust changed. The stock heads have a terrible exhaust shape. There was also an extra cooling fin. An OU head can be identified by the rocker covers , as it has quantity 4 all alike versus stock which has 3 like covers , and an odd 4 bolt one. I have 2 heads I got from Shell Truet some time ago. I presently am working over one to see if I can get any gains. The cams they used were about .535" lift compared to .430-480" lift we generally use on the stock heads. I had to design pistons and get some rockers made special, as the origionals were junk. Roberts used that engine a few times , and decided he wanted to road race in GP's , so the program was halted before they got it going. I also use Carrillo Rods, as the stockers are weak, install alum. sleeves and get coated by a firm here in the states. Getting rid of the iron liner was huge in regards to heat and long cylinder life. PVL 2 stroke mag mounted on the crank, 38MM carbs bore out some. Can run all year without taking apart , most of the time!!

John Ellis
Junk Yard Dawg
F750

John

Please tell us more about the aluminum sleeves. What material? Interference fit? Where they are made and who coats them with what? It would be great if we could do that with Norton Alum Maney cylinders - if they stayed round in service and did not distort that is. It would allow tighter piston clearances.

What the duration of the .535 lift cam at.040" checking clearance?

I got to meet Kenny Roberts way back at a Clovis CA 1/2 mile flat track race. He and his crew were hanging out in a horse stall (yeah it was a horse race track of course). He was mellow and courteous without the raging ego that you see in too many racers. He was on the XS650 and I always wondered where he got more power from that motor. I don't remember the name of the winner but he had a wildly modified Triumph that left everyone and would wheelie all the way down the straights at 90mph.

Junk yard Dawg · Oct 22, 2015

Advance Sleeve in Cleveland Ohio does the sleeve fitment , and they send off to Millinium 'SP' in Wi to coat with some type of Nickosil 'sp' coating. With 80-81MM bore , I run .002-.0025 , and the cylinders stay round for many years. Oil cooler and 30 degree timing. Not sure of the cam duration on the OU , but I received from Shell with no numbers, so I split the timing . That motor is still under development. This year I went back to stock head motor. Have new plans for the OU, as the competition is always getting better , and I'm not getting younger!! HA

John Ellis
Junk Yard Dawg
F750

jseng1 · Oct 23, 2015

Junk yard Dawg said:
Advance Sleeve in Cleveland Ohio does the sleeve fitment , and they send off to Millinium 'SP' in Wi to coat with some type of Nickosil 'sp' coating. With 80-81MM bore , I run .002-.0025 , and the cylinders stay round for many years. Oil cooler and 30 degree timing. Not sure of the cam duration on the OU , but I received from Shell with no numbers, so I split the timing . That motor is still under development. This year I went back to stock head motor. Have new plans for the OU, as the competition is always getting better , and I'm not getting younger!! HA

John Ellis
Junk Yard Dawg
F750

Alum Nikasil coated cylinders would be the biggest improvement for Nortons. Both Jim Comstock and Steve Maney have attempted it but had distortion problems after running. I don't get it - it shouldn't be that hard and everyone would buy them - but it may require thicker cylinder walls to keep things round. If alum doesn't stay round then at least someone should offer Austentic iron liners that expand closer to the rate of aluminum - this would allow tighter clearances with alminum cylinders. Its been done but Austentic cast iron liners with high Nickel content are not available - and that's disappointing.

Doug MacRae · Oct 23, 2015

I can confirm that John the Junkyard Dawg is crazy fast on that crazy fast Yamaha. It was good for me to get a full weekend in at Barber and figure it out, maybe next year I can have something for you in F750. Herb did discover a few things tearing down the motor that will give us some extra hp next year and that never is a bad thing, we are going to go to the dyno again soon and see what the improvements bring.

Narley ports for High HP Nort roadracer.

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