most britt rear shocks are ~ vertical
- Thread starter 74ok
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i'm not having much luck with the site search function, comes up with nothing on this search and there is some issue with the 'down' word here (lay down shocks)
however, the combined google search works better
https://www.google.com/search?sitesearc ... gws_rd=ssl
edit=got 5 hits on this site with a search of 'laydown shocks'
however, the combined google search works better
https://www.google.com/search?sitesearc ... gws_rd=ssl
edit=got 5 hits on this site with a search of 'laydown shocks'
Nater_Potater
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84ok said:
Actually returns some progressive rising action to the shock and spring. As you probably remember, we went through a time in the 80's/90's with both street and dirt bikes where everybody had some kind of progressive linkage. Fortunately, that's fading from popularity, as they're more and more incorporating progressive springs, shocks, and active suspension components. 'More to go wrong, in my book...
Honda's variant:
Most interesting is the graph in the lower-right showing the rising rate change as compared to a straight-up shock (like on my Triumph).
Suzuki bucked the trend quite successfully on their dirt bikes by holding out when everyone else had converted to linkage, showing the gains to be more public image, rather than sound return on investment (from a racing standpoint).
Back to no linkage in '14.
As the shock angle becomes more pronounced, the progressive action's curve becomes more pronounced, but also requires a heavier spring/shock combo, as the bike's weight has more leverage against the shock. 'Something to play with when you're designing a new frame!
Nathan
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ludwig said:
This also has been my opinion on this topic.
A significant amount or rearward preload short of hitting the secondary ISO buffers will be offset when throttle is applied. This would prevent/reduce a harsh bottoming out of the secondary buffer on acceleration in the forward direction.
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Someday another crazy rider will try out Ms Peel's against the grain tr-links to see part the magic of isolastics has to do with the power pulse dampening of rear traction hook up to know there is No Sharp Shocks transmitted by road loads through line of 2 isolastics, thank goodnesss. To be blunt this is not apparent until significant power to weight ratio obtained and getting into crashing zones by accident or on purpose. My experience on other sports bikes when nailing them must be careful on leans not to break tire loose at lessor loads than Peel which just hooked so much better would lift front out of traction while fouling pegs like a supermotard. I'd work Trixie up to rear skip outs on turns but the un-tamed frame twitch back into Hinging made next instant fearful of recovery. Peel would just squat a bit more as front lifted but didn't change the rear tire only steering security and was very hard to break free when all bike and pilot mass on rear patch only. I tease about not being able to skip/drift/slide a unicycle but Ms Peel could, though to do so takes a lot more G's force than a fatso tire can hook up near edges, so am totally discussed with that limiting feature.
My ^^feeling^^ *speculation* is the vertical shocks on Commando powered racers mainly benefits the corner cripples by decreasing the front trail so easier to flick around ***until power-hook up*** enough to lift front out of traction - which is the limit of their cornering sharper G's and they must back off or transition into the lazy dazy flat tractor wide slides which is fun and relaxing to me but not a way to get ahead faster in turns. I *believe* that what the vertical mounts are mainly doing is lifting rear a bit so could get very similar results by just a longer angled shock/spring pair, which is what next Peel has. My definition of corner cripples is over whelming pilot strength and reflex speed to stay in control vs over whelming human capacity to go at it harsher so just can't w/o transitioning into litterally controlled crashing exactly the same as you see the amazing video of riders flung off out of control cycles but able to climb back on [after let offs] or bike falls on them and luck out to bounce bike back up and carry on. Routine state I could get Peel into in most danerous rough wagon trail hwy's as only place that allowed or requred such sharp snatching around to have fun beyond corner cripple non breath taking ho hum G forces. Nothing but Nothing excites me like Peel could so looking forward to even more and see if world can catch up.
My ^^feeling^^ *speculation* is the vertical shocks on Commando powered racers mainly benefits the corner cripples by decreasing the front trail so easier to flick around ***until power-hook up*** enough to lift front out of traction - which is the limit of their cornering sharper G's and they must back off or transition into the lazy dazy flat tractor wide slides which is fun and relaxing to me but not a way to get ahead faster in turns. I *believe* that what the vertical mounts are mainly doing is lifting rear a bit so could get very similar results by just a longer angled shock/spring pair, which is what next Peel has. My definition of corner cripples is over whelming pilot strength and reflex speed to stay in control vs over whelming human capacity to go at it harsher so just can't w/o transitioning into litterally controlled crashing exactly the same as you see the amazing video of riders flung off out of control cycles but able to climb back on [after let offs] or bike falls on them and luck out to bounce bike back up and carry on. Routine state I could get Peel into in most danerous rough wagon trail hwy's as only place that allowed or requred such sharp snatching around to have fun beyond corner cripple non breath taking ho hum G forces. Nothing but Nothing excites me like Peel could so looking forward to even more and see if world can catch up.
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It changes the spring rate and the travel. On 60s Velocettes the top mount was adjustable, however the one I rode still felt like a camel. The trend with suspensions through the sixties was towards softer springs and more travel. The first TZ750s had upright twin shocks, the later ones had adopted the MX Monoshock suspension, later bikes again had rising rate suspension with linkages and the vertical shock under the seat. In the end a lot comes down to what the steering head is doing under acceleration and braking - how you want the bike to handle, rather than how the bike absorbs the bumps especially on a road race circuit. These days most circuits are pretty smooth.84ok said:
I think the standard commando set-up is as it should be for that type of bike when used on public roads. It is interesting that if your bike feels horrible in the front, it is often a problem with the rear shocks.
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I think with the Seeley I am currently using 80 pound springs, and it has been self-steering quite a bit. It is quite predictable and that can be used to advantage. However I recently noticed that a bolt under the seat has been touching the rear tyre, so I set the ride height one notch higher. The next time I take it out to practice, I can expect it's natural self-steering tendency to have changed. It won't matter because as I warm up over the first few laps I always take notice of where the bike ends up when coming out of corners. What the rear shocks are doing is very important.
It was a result of the structural design. The strong point was where the big top tube joined the cross-member towards the back of the seat. If the shocks' top mount had been further back it would have been on the seat loop, which wasn't designed for suspension forces.
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If you look at my bike you will see where I added metal plates to the rear frame loop. The place where the luggage rack is mounted is a shock mount. When I first put my bike together I didn't have a set of Commando shocks so I used some shocks from an old Yamakawahonda. They were a couple inches shorter than the Commando shocks. I used it for a year or so that way before I came up with some longer shocks. The first thing I noticed when I installed the correct shocks was the bike vibrated more, particularly when the rear suspension was compressed by a load or wave in the road. The canted rear shocks pull back on the engine cradle and load the iso bushings so they transmit more vibration.
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comnoz said:
most stuff ive read speak of the advantages of laying down a shock but you had the opposite experience?
there is also still plenty of new and current bikes with more vertical setups,
it was mostly dirt bikes that went full monty with the layown shock setup from what i saw
Nater_Potater
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Fascinating! 'Definitely makes sense. So, do we now entertain the idea of a fourth link?comnoz said:
Nathan
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comnoz said:
Probably the longer travel accentuates the sloppiness feel from the isolastic mounts ? I laid the shocks down on an alcohol fuelled T250 Suzuki and pushed the rear end and front forks up 50mm at the same time. Where it used to feel stiff and dead, it became very pleasant to ride at high speed. (Faster than a speeding Yamaha TZ350G). I often wonder if the amount of travel in modern road bike suspensions is really necessary.
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