More Triumph trouble for Garner...

I can see why, as the labour rates in UK are astronomical.

It is 'almost' a good reason...

I come across this discussion all the time in my line of work...

Companies like Honda, Nissan, Toyota prove that manufacturing operarions CAN be profitable in UK, not to mention the fabulous success of Jaguar Landrover.

I'm afraid that low labour rates are often used as an excuse, and often pushed by accountants focused on 'piece price cost' rather than 'total cost' of a long and complex supply chain. The real reasons are more complex, and require more management effort.

One real reason for many companies locating operations in the Far East is to escape the excess 'red tape' of western governments. Another very real reason, that is almost never admitted publicly is to escape suffocating unions.

Interestingly, the 'rush' to move east has slowed down in the last few years and in fact, some companies ( the lead on this seems to be big US companies) are even re-locating operations back on home turf.

I agree, however many of the companies you mention are Global concerns, with access to labour forces in many countries and is more often the case, access to less restrictive tax regimes! The exception is JLR, who have found a niche and are making superb products. I know, I have a Range Rover...

Any UK only manufacturing company will find themselves paying more to manufacture a product, ie per bike, than in many other places. In some cases this produces an exclusivity benefit, but not in mass produced items obviously. I cant see Slovakian 961s, anybody? They'll be a lot cheaper, lol....

You might be right Dozer, you might not, its difficult to tell to be honest without looking into it properly.

Many, many times, when I've done this, the evidence has shown that manufacturing here is actually very viable. In general, the principle of manufacturing in the same region where you sell, still seems to hold true. In fact, I have done such analysis in companies before (and I'm talking big companies here) where the evidence was clear that the 'total cost' of the extended supply chain way outweighed the piece price saving, but still the higher powers decided to go with the move.

I don't know for sure, but I think this is down to a mix of political agendas and a healthy dose of 'Emperors new clothes' !!

I just think Triumph doesn't like the endless comparisons between the Thruxton and the Norton where the Thruxton comes up woefully short (and fat).

A better Triumph won't have much of an impact on Norton as it's such a limited production machine. Limited = exclusive.

swooshdave said:

I just think Triumph doesn't like the endless comparisons between the Thruxton and the Norton where the Thruxton comes up woefully short (and fat).

A better Triumph won't have much of an impact on Norton as it's such a limited production machine. Limited = exclusive.

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I don’t think the guys at Triumph are concerned about the comparison with the new Commando. The 865 Bonneville has been one of their best selling models for years, since 2001, in spite of cycle mags panning it for being under powered. The factory paid for the tooling and engineering costs of the Bonneville line many years ago. They can see the bike is growing long in the tooth, and it’s time for a significant update. I assume they have product people who monitor the Triumph RAT website to listen to what Bonneville owners post about how they wish it had better performance, and better suspension, better brakes, etc..

EU regs are pushing BMW, and Ducati, and Guzzi toward a watercooled future as well. Triumph is just doing what they must to continue to manufacture the Bonneville twin legally.

I agree with you, that the new Bonneville will not likely have a great impact on the new Norton. The Norton is quite different in concept from the Triumph. The Norton is not as refined as the Triumph Bonneville. The 961 engine is not as smooth, or civilized as the Bonneville motor. To me the Commando more closely approximates the feel of the original 750/850 Commando power delivery, than the new Bonneville is able to approximate the feel of the old Meridan Bonne. That connection to an older generation of machines is something that I appreciate in the new Commando. The exclusivity factor helps as well.

I own an 865 Bonne, and a 961 Commando, but I am interested in seeing where Triumph ultimately take this new design. If I like what they produce, I’ll have one too.

Fair enough....

Norton are getting closer to Triumph. As Norton now use a whole host of motor parts from Taiwan.

using motor parts from asia ? realy? like what and if so why are you buying the crap? exclusive ting tong bike ,ha ha ,il stick with the real deals .

I only found out after I bought my bike !!!!!!
It is some list,
crankcase
Cylinder head
Cylinder nicasil coating
Camshaft
Crankshaft
Transmission
Pistons
In fact the only british made engine parts are outer crankcase covers and the alternator.
Such a shame,even at the recent bike show at the NEC still quoting 82% British made ,RUBBISH !

961Story said:

I only found out after I bought my bike !!!!!!
It is some list,
crankcase
Cylinder head
Cylinder nicasil coating
Camshaft
Crankshaft
Transmission
Pistons
In fact the only british made engine parts are outer crankcase covers and the alternator.
Such a shame,even at the recent bike show at the NEC still quoting 82% British made ,RUBBISH !

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Wow, is that list true?

And if so, where in the Far East are they made?

If its Japan, I'd see it as a positive... If its China or India, I wouldn't...

What is your source of information regarding that parts list. I'd like to read it for myself. Triumph Bonnies are Taiwanese and as you all know, very reliable.

Taiwan,my source of information a very chatty Norton employee I happened to bump into.

With the low volumes Norton has' I'd be staggered if this saved any real money. It only takes one quality issue to cause havoc in his supply chain and wipe out any small saving he was enjoying.

I womder if he's gone 'further afield' due to having burned bridges with European suppliers, as there have been many stories of such ?

As a side note I once had a great talk with a very large TVR dealer, he had just been stripped of his franchise, his 'crime' was that he was offering engine rebuilds with a package of improvements to cure the problems with the Tuscan, this was an awesome car but suffered huge early engine failures (a friend had a new engine after 1,500 miles). TVR said his actions were essentially admitting t faults that they denied existed!
Anyway, the point is, the Tuscan had TVRs own engine (heaven knows why they didn't simply buy something from a big manufacturer) and many key internal components, namely cam, crank, rods, pistons and cylinder head were sourced in Far East. The dealer was scathing about the poor quality. He replaced all these with European sourced parts, apart from the head, which he reworked with new valves, seats and some other work.

Britfan60 said:

What is your source of information regarding that parts list. I'd like to read it for myself. Triumph Bonnies are Taiwanese and as you all know, very reliable.

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According to Triumph, all engines are built in the UK. The crankcases are all cast and machined in the UK. The bikes are either assembled at Hinckley in the UK ( letter J in VIN) or at an identical Triumph assembly plant in Thailand( letter T in the VIN)
As with most modern production vehicles, the various parts come from many different countries.

Glen

Fast...Interesting, not about Norton although I suspect your point about burnt bridges may be
very near the truth, but about TVR. I helped TVR develope the engine and of course supplied
cam chain for that and the V8s. In my view the six was launched too early without prolonged
testing although it was a super engine that produced good HP from day one.

I still provide many chains for TVRs and there is a builder that offers a better warrany than
TVR ever did.

Andy

It's a great luxury to be a purist about the origin of metal objects in a vehicle, but if it makes you happy...

Back to the subject of the thread, at least in my case, the new Triumph Thruxton 1100 'R' will probably cause me not to buy a Norton.
Firstly, it'll have a similar or greater spec, be homologated and available (in Spain) and probably be up to 8000 euros less: probably 12000€ V 20000€.

The Norton will have the snob 'exclusive' value that some people like as well as having a very attractive design.
If the final Triumph product can combine the attraction of the head and the heart then many others will be going Thruxton R rather than Norton 961. To be honest, I'd prefer the Norton if it has the same guarantees as the Triumph, but since I can only buy one, it looks like the Norton is out

If you're going by specs only, the Triumph might be the way for you to go, but its too early to tell how the overall build quality will compare. The Norton is a hell of a solid bike. Fittings, cables, pegs, dials, pressure hoses......top quality. And I doubt your going to get Ohlins without an optional premium price.

Britfan60 said:

If you're going by specs only, the Triumph might be the way for you to go, but its too early to tell how the overall build quality will compare. The Norton is a hell of a solid bike. Fittings, cables, pegs, dials, pressure hoses......top quality. And I doubt your going to get Ohlins without an optional premium price.

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As you say, time will tell. But even with the Ohlins and Brembo options I doubt whether it'd be more than 14K euros at the most. Look at the Speed Triple R which is in that ballpark area.
I've been to the Norton Factory, I've ridden the bike, and I took away an OK impression without being bowled over. There's an awful lot of image and marketing behind the bikes without us having to get blinded by holy light.
The Norton is attractive and the name is exclusive, and the ride quality is pretty good. The bike reliability, quality and dealer back-up is a 'Pass' at best. :? We'll see, but right now I'd put my bets on getting the Thruxton 'R'.
Time will tell ! :wink:

Unfortunately for those of you paying in Euros, 14 thousand Euros is about what I paid for the Norton in US currency, plus the optional pipes and tax, of course. I'm sorry its not less for you. Wonder what the price of the Truimph will be in the US. I really do look forward to checking it out. Although I do like it, quite a lot, actually, the Beemer Nine T didn't quite add up to the Norton in looks, size and quality of components. A lot of it just didn't seem well thought out. Complicated.