JS ligh weight pistons

I just received this missive from Jim:

On 02/27/14, Jim Schmidt<jim@jsmotorsport.com> wrote:


To all US customers of JS lighweight Norton pistons.

To reduce cylinder bore wear with our short pistons, Have your cylinders impregrated with carbide at Bore Tech (they also do boring).

See their website at:

http://bore-tech.com/Carbide%20Bore%20Process

ph. 513 625 8374

Jim S\


I wrote back to ask for advice in my case where I already have 1500 miles on un-carbided cylinders, perhaps Jim will simply post here. I would be interested in hearing any facts or opinions about experiences more aggressive riders have had with this situation.

Bill.

why not just pick up the phone and call Jim Schmidt?

here is his contact info from his web site

4480 North Academy Avenue
Sanger, CA 93657
Phone/Fax: 559 875 0659
Email: jim@jsmotorsport.com

Why wouldn't all of us do this to preserve our bores?

What's it cost? Oh, maybe I just answered the first question! :shock:

rvich said:

Why wouldn't all of us do this to preserve our bores?

What's it cost? Oh, maybe I just answered the first question! :shock:

Click to expand...

My question was not about cost so much as it was about the effect on the bores after 1500 miles without the process; is this a process better suited during the build, or can it still be effective after break-in; has damage been done? When Jim sends out a global e-mail I get an inherent sense of urgency.

Rather than call him, he is frequently unavailable, I thought that he might want to explain his basis on this forum, once, rather than return a lot of calls.

Bill.

I called Bore-Tech because I was curious and I decided that making jokes was not appropriate without knowledge. So first, the price for a Commando is not very scary at 220 dollars. The report is that British twins are good candidates for this process because of how porous the cast iron tends to be. And the claim is ten times the hardness can be achieved.

As for used bores, as long as they are still true and of a proper diameter for the pistons and rings being used then yes, no problem. They do a polishing hone and then impregnate the hard stuff.

That's the report I got.

Russ

The carbide process works for any cast iron cylinder with any brand of piston.

As vrich put it in an above post. "why shouldn't all of us want to preserve our bores".

Carbide impregnation to the cylinders is something I first heard about when Herb Becker and John Magyar were seeing exaggerated wear on their 10,000 RPM ultra Short stroke 500cc Norton with their own piston design - the carbide bore impregnation solved the problem. Jim Comstock also reports positive results with the carbide bore process. With the lightweight pistons - racers are seeing more RPM and HP than ever before and it makes perfect sense that Norton owners would want the best that modern technology has to offer to extend the life of their bikes. Racebikes naturally need a lot more maintenance than street bikes. Now there's a way to at least triple the life of the cylinder bore without having to go to Nikasil.

Street bikes don't experience as much abuse as racers but its not too terribly expensive to go with the carbide process and possibly skip the next rebuild.

I don't have any personal experience with the carbide process. But from what I've heard it works well enough for me to recommend it.

Lightweight piston shown below.

Anyone have any idea what the Boretech process is and how the hard material is actually adhered to the bore? Their website uses the following description…

"This technique is not a coating that builds up or is a layer on top of the base metal, thus cannot be used to restore worn bores back to size. Imbedding the carbide particles into a straight, round bore locks the ceramics into the pores of the base metal in a manner that prohibits the particles from dislodging. A "Plateau" finish bearing curve provides good oil retention sites with optimum surface for ring sealing."

I realize they've worked out the process to a satisfactory degree and many people swear by it. I am not at all questioning the technology just a snoopy guy that wants to better understand the rationale for adhesion that anchors the hard carbide particles into the bore to the extent they will not dislodge, or as they say - "locks the ceramics into the pores of the base metal in a manner that prohibits the particles from dislodging". It is just very unobvious to me what would "lock" the particles into the cast iron and keep them from dislodging in use.

Aren't most Japanese superbike pistons Teflon coated ? Surely bore wear is related to the compatibility between the cylinder and rings materials ?

WZ507 said:

Anyone have any idea what the Boretech process is and how the hard material is actually adhered to the bore? Their website uses the following description…

"This technique is not a coating that builds up or is a layer on top of the base metal, thus cannot be used to restore worn bores back to size. Imbedding the carbide particles into a straight, round bore locks the ceramics into the pores of the base metal in a manner that prohibits the particles from dislodging. A "Plateau" finish bearing curve provides good oil retention sites with optimum surface for ring sealing."

I realize they've worked out the process to a satisfactory degree and many people swear by it. I am not at all questioning the technology just a snoopy guy that wants to better understand the rationale for adhesion that anchors the hard carbide particles into the bore to the extent they will not dislodge, or as they say - "locks the ceramics into the pores of the base metal in a manner that prohibits the particles from dislodging". It is just very unobvious to me what would "lock" the particles into the cast iron and keep them from dislodging in use.

Click to expand...

I agree that this process sounds a bit like snake oil.......why not do a proper job such as Nikilsil and end up with bores that will last over 200K miles without problems, plus you don't need a liner on aluminum cylinders.

I'd be worried about the bit of aluminium which goes into the crankcase. I've seen cast iron liners split down there in some engines.

chasbmw said:

I agree that this process sounds a bit like snake oil.......why not do a proper job such as Nikalsil and end up with bores that will last over 200K miles without problems, plus you don't need a liner on aluminum cylinders.

Click to expand...

I would love to see Aluminum cylinders with Nikasil plating. Norton suppliers are dragging their butts on this one. Its been done but is not commercially available. Someone could make some bucks at this. Bore wear would be practically eliminated and cooling improved. The cast iron liners are just too soft and need upgrading. If there is a problem with Nikasil then the bore tech process may be the next best option (reports are positive). Anyone have any experience with Nikasil on Nortons?

Dang good long term process in alloy air cooled race engines. Btw what would an all alloy cylinder be worth?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

Care and feeding of this type coating, basically nothing.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaFp8aYkHNA[/video]

How it's done
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR3EnKRQ_iw[/video]

"comnoz"]

Whitworth Ranch said:

Why not nickel silicon carbide on the alloy?

Click to expand...

Plus I have yet to see anyone keep a plated aluminum Norton barrel from distorting when it gets hot. It isn't a good shape for even heat dissipation. Jim[/quote]
those are extract from Jim Comstock alloy billet thread.....

Hi, me too , I would like to get any feedback about nickasil on alloy cast cylinder , cause I have one and the bottom skirt is too thin to fit a liner.........

Well with airheads it's sOP to use OEM or aftermarket nikilsil coated aluminium cast cylinders.

Gidday all. I too am curious about this. not critical, just curious.

if it is impregnated, this maybe seems a similar process to charging a lap?. this would involve some pressure on the bore and indeed a light hone or other finishing process must apply to this also. .

Then, what happens when a rebore is needed. Does the impregnated carbide wreck havoc with the boring tool. This is a engine cylinder and probably only 10 thou a side is coming out. So a big cut to get under the hard bits in one hit, as done to cast iron pressure plates etc, may not work. does the bore require grinding instead or is this process that good it wont wear in one lifetime.

As most cylinder borers I have run across used brazed tip tools technology, this may be an issue, as the available grades are better with indexable tips. if the impregnated carbides are there I would question if even ceramics or CBN wold be needed to rebore these impregnated cylinders.

awaiting enlightenment Bradley

has anybody used these guys to Nikilsil plate bores? does not need to be Norton.


http://www.langcourt.com/page2.html

I had hobot's cylinders done by Bore Tech, and the total cost, including shipping the cylinders to them, was about $250. The actual bill from Bore Tech was $212.12. That was for cylinders already bored and honed to size. They also offer boring and honing services if needed. They use a mechanical burnishing process to force the material into the pores of the cast iron. They were pleasant to deal with, but I have no idea how well the cylinders will wear. I'm planning to have it done on two engines I'm building for my street Nortons, and will eventually get some experience with it.

Regarding Nicasil finish on existing alloy Norton cylinders, at least a couple people have tried that and not had success. One of the Norton folks that tried it told me that the alloys normally used for his cylinders were not appropriate for Nicasil, whatever that means. It seems to be common on 2-strokes, but the only 4-strokes I have experience with that used aluminum bores were Yamaha singles (TT600), and they used a separate aluminum liner, made from a different alloy than the cylinder. One could probably find more info on alloy compatibilities with a bit of searching, or maybe directly from the providers.

Ken

Nicasil needs a hard aluminum base to last long. 356a casting alloy works well.
6061 or other billets or extrusions do not work well -[for long]

Of course Nicasil can be used on cast iron also. That works very well. But it is expensive and makes repair more than just boring it to the next oversize. Jim

chasbmw said:

has anybody used these guys to Nikilsil plate bores? does not need to be Norton.


http://www.langcourt.com/page2.html

Click to expand...

Not personally, but a dealer I know uses them and recommends them to others for recovering otherwise knackered -seized and badly scoured - but irreplaceable 2t barrels.

The carbide or Nikasil process is a way to extend bore life for all cast iron cylinders. Personally - I haven't done it and haven't needed to. But its always a good idea to extend the life of your motor - especially when you have expensive parts in it. The impregnation technique is probably more reliable than a plating. If you go Nikasil plating just make sure they know what they're doing and have a reputation for a reliable product.

The treatment is more important with racebikes that exceed reasonable piston speeds at high RPM with the Norton's long stroke. I know of a couple racers who buzz to 8000+ RPM that have cylinder wear problems. Street bikes don't have the wear problem but it doesn't hurt to make the cylinders last longer. A technician at Bore tech told me that you can expect 3Xs the bore life with the carbide impregnation. I plan on doing it next rebuild but so far I have 6 years on my cylinders and lightweight pistons and expect 6 more - so there's no rush.

History goes back to the highly stressed Norton factory racing Short strokes - they found it necessary to go to nitrided barrels to slow down the cylinder wear. The Yellow stripe on the Factory short stroke barrels below indicates hardened cylinders (photo courtesy of Ken Canaga).