Isle of Man TT: rider dies in Wednesday practice crash

Superbike rider Dan Kneen dies in practice crash;

https://www.autosport.com/tt/news/136407/tt-racer-kneen-dies-in-practice-crash

In another unrelated accident on Monday a rider was killed after colliding with two cars

Shocked and saddened when the news came through. Such a terrific talent, lost too young. R.I.P Dan

Apparently when Cameron Donald started racing, it was on the IOM. I have had a fair amount of experience and have watched several on-board videos about the IOM - I would think long and hard before ever racing there. It looks too easy to go wrong. A friend of mine did an 84 MPH lap when he first went there. But he said ' if you keep doing it, you get faster'. Another friend did two laps and was killed, and he was a top rider.

Every year the police and ambulance are attending crashes during TT week when the roads are open, I did 6 laps in total when I went there including going over the mountain mile on mad Sunday which I rode fast staying ahead of a much bigger engine bike! (And there was a bike that had crashed just after the Bungalow leaving oil on the road) this was in 1988 when the mountain was only one way on the Mad Sunday so I gave the circuit some respect, the road bikes are quicker now, than then, and far, far faster than a lot of riders can cope with – so I don’t see it improving any time soon.

There is a mentality which occurs in motorcycling - 'if he can do it, so can I', - It is not always the case. From outside the fence, motorcycle road racing is different from inside the fence. I think that on the IOM, it would be very easy to get sucked-in and make a mistake. On most motorcycle road race circuits, the laps are short enough that memorising the course is not a problem.

Another one today ...... rookie Adam Lyon. Sad

I tend to avoid large race circuits and stay with circuits that I know very well. For me the IOM would be a quantum leap. Even a short circuit is not easy to get right in a short period of time. With the IOM, a lot would be 'take it as it comes', until you had raced there for a number of years. For an inexperienced rider, it would be extremely dangerous.

texasSlick said:

Another one today ...... rookie Adam Lyon. Sad

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Yes a sad reminder of how dangerous the TT is, but more fool Adam Lyon to race his first race on a Superstock 1- a 1000cc bike!!
Was he smart to , as a first time racer in the IOM race a big engine bike? - I don't think so. . . .

I’m surprised there aren’t rules for rookies to only enter smaller machines until they ‘graduate’.

acotrel said:

I tend to avoid large race circuits and stay with circuits that I know very well. For me the IOM would be a quantum leap. Even a short circuit is not easy to get right in a short period of time. With the IOM, a lot would be 'take it as it comes', until you had raced there for a number of years. For an inexperienced rider, it would be extremely dangerous.

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I was gonna race the Manx at one time, but I chickened out, something I’m actually pleased about now as, well, I’m alive.

But when I was being ‘mentored’ to ride there I was told “just memorise the slow parts, it’s sounds counter intuitive, but everything else is flat out, so memorise the slow parts and go as fast as you can everywhere else”!

I think that that advice was probably perfect for certain bikes, especially classics. But I seriously doubt it applies to the 200bhp+ bikes that those boys are riding these days!

The speed that they travel at today, the pin point accuracy, the insanely fast reflexes they have and the utter lack of margin for error are ALL just astonishing IMHO. When added together, it’s hard to contemplate !

Well,... I'm a backcountry skier. I climb mountains and ski back down them... The snow conditions are natural in the BC, so there's no "control work" done by a ski patrol to mitigate potential avalanche danger. People regularly die skiing in the backcountry. One of my best friends died in an avalanche last year....

In BC skiing, we talk about 2 things. The liklihood of a problem based on the science of the snowpack conditions of each day, and the consequences when a problem occurs. We balance our risk factor based on these 2 probabilities, and proceed accordingly.

IMO, The IOM course's consequences are the persistant problem. You can't safely do 160mph right next to brick buildings and rock walls. A miscalculation has a high possibility of deadly consequences. So the problem isn't that a given rider can't negotiate the course at incredible speeds, The problem is that the consequences of a mistake are so costly, that the risks are foolish to take... This is how we balance avalanche risk in the backcountry... The severity of the consequences effect the amount of risk a skier should take, NOT just the liklihood of an avalanche.

IN the case of the IOM, I don't see adding some padding to a brick wall reducing the consequences of hitting that wall at high speed by very much...

Other forms of racing have things like sand traps on corners to slow down vehicles that 'miss' the corner without there being a potentially deadly traumatic force from an impact. NASCAR has soft walls, hans devices, and car crumple zones. There's not much that can mitigate the consequences of a rider crashing into a brick building at over 100mph. IMO, the consequences of a mistake in the Isle of Man race are to high to justify the risk. While I respect the skill of the riders, I also think the consequences of a mistake are too high to take the risks they take.

*As a note to the analogy of my friend, he died on a low probability avalanche day, but he was swept through a grove of trees and killed by blunt force trauma from hitting a tree at speed. The grove of trees being below his route should have been considered as increasing the consequences of the minor avalanche he was caught in irregardless of the fact that the liklihood of an avalanche that day was low.... the consequences were high even though the risk that day was low and that should have effected the amount of risk that he took that day...

I get it. The riders are incredibly talented and can go at terrific speeds. I don't think they should do it on "that course" because there's too many places where the consequences of a crash are increased by impact with immovable objects like rock walls and buildings...

They know the risks when signing up for it, every year people die there over 200 since it began but it does not stop them!...I have been there a couple times, looks fast on film but faster in real life.....brilliant riding...the best road race left in the world.....Moto GP is for ballerinas IOM is for wrestlers!...............no one forces them to do it!

If you ride on reflexes, you end up dead. I take Metoprolol beta blocker for a heart condition. If I have a moment, I don't get the sudden burst of adrenalin, everything happens in the cold hard light of day. But the time dilation effect is still there - you always have plenty of time to recover, if you go wrong. It is probably wise to concentrate on the slow parts of any race circuit. I always work up to the corners and develop getting on the gas earlier when coming out. What happens in the high speed parts is largely irrelevant. However a lot depends on memory. The IOM is probably too big to memorise in the available practice sessions, so the guys who are fast there have probably been going there for a number of years. If you were silly enough to try and stay with one of them, you would probably go into a corner too hot.

manx850 said:

They know the risks when signing up for it, every year people die there over 200 since it began but it does not stop them!...I have been there a couple times, looks fast on film but faster in real life.....brilliant riding...the best road race left in the world.....Moto GP is for ballerinas IOM is for wrestlers!...............no one forces them to do it!

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So you think 'big balls' is the answer ? I once thought I had a psychological problem while racing which was caused by an earlier crash. So I went faster and had an even bigger crash.

Then you should probably stop racing........not safe for an old person on meds! They have bigger balls and better reflexes also!

Fast Eddie said:

I’m surprised there aren’t rules for rookies to only enter smaller machines until they ‘graduate’.

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I couldn’t agree with you more, as far as I am aware you only need an International racing licence for the ACU to accept your entry for the TT – IMO this is absurd- I don’t think you have to do a 100 mph lap in practice and as the lap record for the lightweight TT is 124mph -Why not?

I think you really need to serve some sort of “apprenticeship” if you want to race at the TT starting with the Newcomers race at the September Manx GP first in order to get some qualifying points on your licence first.

o0norton0o said:

Well,... I'm a backcountry skier. I climb mountains and ski back down them... The snow conditions are natural in the BC, so there's no "control work" done by a ski patrol to mitigate potential avalanche danger. People regularly die skiing in the backcountry. One of my best friends died in an avalanche last year....

In BC skiing, we talk about 2 things. The liklihood of a problem based on the science of the snowpack conditions of each day, and the consequences when a problem occurs. We balance our risk factor based on these 2 probabilities, and proceed accordingly.

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The only trouble I recently heard about skiing is a skier decides to go “off piste”. . . a certain Michel Schumacher springs to mind

acotrel said:

If you ride on reflexes, you end up dead. ... The IOM is probably too big to memorise in the available practice sessions, so the guys who are fast there have probably been going there for a number of years. If you were silly enough to try and stay with one of them, you would probably go into a corner too hot.

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Absolutely right . Riders use to spend several months learning the course and committing it to memory. Now they probably do not , maybe there should be a knowledge test before allowed out to practice never mind race.