Going Racing

storm42

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Derek Jones of RTD is a most helpful man who can and does make ignitions to fit all types, including cars. Located just outside of Towcester he's pretty convenient for the Silverstone based car teams, but does two and four stroke systems for bikes also, multi cylinders included. He was himself a former racer, so well understands the requirements of any would be racer.
Systems can be fixed ignition point or adjustable/programmable via a laptop link, if necessary with a handlebar switch that enables a choice of ignition advance curves to be selected while running.
I hadn't heard of RTD before but I am liking the look of the EMX-01 unit. I have built a turbocharged ZRX 1200 and I have considered fuel injecting it for more control at higher boost pressures that unit might be just what i need, bit worried about the narrow band Lambda sensor input but it looks like the company could be flexible with the spec of its products.
 

storm42

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Hi do you need such a big lobe on the rotor for the ignitech.
That is something I am looking at but until the new pickup arrives I cannot offer it up, it is all guess work and suck it and see. The lobe ended up the size it is because of the pics that Ignitech have on their website, they look to use fairly large lobes but i am going to see how low i can go by experimenting with the lathe.

pulse_rotor.jpg
 
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RTD is the cats pajamas. Just put one on the Nourish Seeley race bike and I am impressed. The tuner was able to "tune out" a bit of a flat spot in the curve and the motor is so happy. We picked up another 3 RWHP which I am attributing to the crank trigger as we had a lot of scatter timing off of the cam. Highly recommend the RTD. Friend and fellow race uses the RTD on a fleet of race bikes.
 

storm42

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RTD is the cats pajamas. Just put one on the Nourish Seeley race bike and I am impressed. The tuner was able to "tune out" a bit of a flat spot in the curve and the motor is so happy. We picked up another 3 RWHP which I am attributing to the crank trigger as we had a lot of scatter timing off of the cam. Highly recommend the RTD. Friend and fellow race uses the RTD on a fleet of race bikes.
Steve Maney told me that he also picked up 3 or 4 bhp when he went to crank triggered ignition, got the new belt today and the rest is back together so will be running it up this afternoon.
 
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It should bot matter whether the ignition is triggered off the crank or off the cam, the result should be the same. Steve probably moved the timing when he fitted the different system.
 

storm42

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I think like Dances says, it is more to do with a more accurate and stable spark timing. Most ignition solutions are at full advance around 3000rpm especially on the 920 motors that seem to work well with around 26 deg advance so the advance curve has little to do with the power increase.

I had the strobe on mine yesterday and the spark is very stable.
 

lcrken

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It should bot matter whether the ignition is triggered off the crank or off the cam, the result should be the same. Steve probably moved the timing when he fitted the different system.
Not really, Alan. When triggered off the cam the spark advance can be seen to bounce back and forth several degrees with a strobe light, due to the chain tightening and slacking as the force of the lifters on the cam lobes alternately tries to push the cam lobes one direction, and then the other as they go over the nose of the lobe. With a crankshaft trigger the timing stays rock solid. I've had plenty of occasion to watch both, and there really is a huge difference in timing stability with the crank triggered systems. How much horsepower difference that makes, I have no idea.

And I'm quite sure it wasn't due to Steve changing the timing. If you'd worked with him much you'd realize how careful he is about that sort of thing. Might even call him a little bit obsessive:D.

Ken
 

Brooking 850

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+1 ken on the crank mounted ignition, more accurate and very stable. I have a RCR unit on my race bike out of the UK
Regards Mike
 
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In my application it was gear driven cam plus a wonky slot and key drive to the ignition rotor. We had difficulties with this drive arrangement numerous times and went RTD. The cam drive ignition clearly showed ignition timing "dramatically" jumping all over the place and now with the crank trigger it is rock solid.

So tell me Alan, how can a jumping about ignition event yield the same results (we are seeing) with a crank triggered precise ignition event? Share your views and opinions.
 
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So you are telling me that once the motor is revving within it's usable power band everything in the cam drive is jumping around and not pulled in one direction ? What would be the variation in the ignition advance as the bike moved forward five feet ?
 
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With the Hall effect trigger on the crank, the shape of the blade is critical. If you fit a Honda VT750 ignition system to a 750SS Ducati, it can take several attempts to get it right. My friend got it to work, but with a lot of difficulty. It finally advanced up very well and the bike became a much better ride. The advantage was not in horsepower but in flexibility.
 
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So you are telling me that once the motor is revving within it's usable power band everything in the cam drive is jumping around and not pulled in one direction ?
Yes, exactly. What do you think happens when a cam follower goes over the nose of a cam lobe while the motor is revving within most of it’s useable range?


What would be the variation in the ignition advance as the bike moved forward five feet ?
What is the air speed of an unladen European sparrow?
 
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Nigel , experts must love you. What motorcycling needs are more believers - especially those with money.
 
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If I fit a nice new cam chain, would I pick up at least another 2 horsepower ? Perhaps it depends on the fuel ? With methanol, you get a lot of leeway as far as jetting and ignition advance are concerned. Petrol is much more critical - if you get it wrong, it is really wrong. Most of the reason that race bikes are quicker on methanol, is it hides up the tuning errors. If it is too rich, the bike is only a bit slower. But if you tune it as you would with petrol in a two-stroke, it makes motors become really fast

The reason I don't have a crank triggered ignition - I use a single row primary chain with a floating JAWA engine spocket Fitting the trigger would cause major problems. I have considered buying a cheap Honda VT750 ignition system to get the advance curve and the stable triggering. But I cannot figure out how to stop it from getting trashed by the chain, or how to fit it behind the splined sprocket carrier.
 
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Fast Eddie

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Al, when you’ve beat Steve come back and tell us all about how you did it.

Until then you have two people on here telling you that crank triggered ign makes a measurable difference.

Plus Steve Maney swore by it making 2-3hp.

That’s two personal testaments and one VERY well respected and genuine expert.

Now let’s look at your evidence shall we... (queue tumbleweed blowing through)....
 
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