was this pretty straightforward ? any welding required ?
sounds like a sensible move .
"Full Flow" Oil Filter Kit
- Thread starter elefantrider
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was this pretty straightforward ? any welding required ?
sounds like a sensible move .
Only once did I purchase a 4s cam from Les Emery. It was defective and the hardened surface came off in my carefully prepared race engine. Flakes of hard surface material flowed through the oil and embedded themselves into the crank journals and shell bearings. Now I use a screw-on can filter between the oil tank supply and the motor. At each oil change I disconnect the oil line and prime the filter by pulling through oil with a temporarily connected clear hose (so I can see the oil approaching) and vacuum (thats right - by mouth). No more problems but too much hassle for most people.
Matt Spencer said:
No welding but it took some machine work. I started with a MK3 cover so the bump where the antiwetsump valve was gave me enough material to tap for a fitting. I don't know if there would be enough material to tap on the earlier covers without welding. I have some pictures somewhere if you wan to see. Jim
jseng1 said:
Interesting, between the tank supply and the motor. Do you use Emery's spin on filter kit arrangement?
That is the one I have.
No welding but it took some machine work. I started with a MK3 cover so the bump where the antiwetsump valve was gave me enough material to tap for a fitting. I don't know if there would be enough material to tap on the earlier covers without welding. I have some pictures somewhere if you wan to see. Jim[/quote]
Why Not .
8)
Sounds like the optimum set up . The finishing touch for any engine ( Norton or Triumph twin :shock: ) . Everyone should have one . Better set up a Production Line . Full Filtered Pressure System .
Why Not .
8) Sounds like the optimum set up . The finishing touch for any engine ( Norton or Triumph twin :shock: ) . Everyone should have one . Better set up a Production Line . Full Filtered Pressure System .
Fast Eddie
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comnoz said:
If, and when, it is primed properly, I would think it has to be OK as the pump cannot 'create' air as such. But the risk, in my mind at least, and especially for most road riders (myself included) would be in not priming it correctly.
However, when looking at the oil system as a continuous loop, unless you actually put debris into the oil tank, then having the filter on the return is just as good as having it on the feed, but with zero loss to oil pressure, air locks, etc. Thus, I have always preferred installing filters in the return line.
If, and when, it is primed properly, I would think it has to be OK as the pump cannot 'create' air as such. But the risk, in my mind at least, and especially for most road riders (myself included) would be in not priming it correctly.
However, when looking at the oil system as a continuous loop, unless you actually put debris into the oil tank, then having the filter on the return is just as good as having it on the feed, but with zero loss to oil pressure, air locks, etc. Thus, I have always preferred installing filters in the return line.[/quote]
You are right air is not created. But when you put a liquid under a vacuum gas comes from the liquid and will cause a "vapor lock" and the pump will loose prime. With hot slightly aerated oil it does not take much. Ask a hydraulics guy.
I do agree that a filter in the return line is just as good as the pressure side of the pump -if the tank and the oil poured into it is clean.. Jim
However, when looking at the oil system as a continuous loop, unless you actually put debris into the oil tank, then having the filter on the return is just as good as having it on the feed, but with zero loss to oil pressure, air locks, etc. Thus, I have always preferred installing filters in the return line.[/quote]
You are right air is not created. But when you put a liquid under a vacuum gas comes from the liquid and will cause a "vapor lock" and the pump will loose prime. With hot slightly aerated oil it does not take much. Ask a hydraulics guy.
I do agree that a filter in the return line is just as good as the pressure side of the pump -if the tank and the oil poured into it is clean.. Jim
If your going to be sucking air into the oil - then you're also going to have a leaky pig.
I've been priming my oil filter on the suction side of the oil pump since the 1980s on my race & street bikes.
But no I don't recommend it any more than I recommend making your own oil filter assembly - which I did.
I use a Fram ph3506. Oil comes out of the center of the filter. It takes a plain pipe fitting set up so the threads tighten up in the center hole of the filter when the filter is fully home on the rubber seal - trick is setting the pipe threads at the correct protrusion and also tight & leakproof in the aluminum plate. I ended up using an Oring on the center pipe fitting to prevent minor weeping. Another small pipe fitting & hose to the side feeds oil into the filter.
I could just as easily run it on the pressure side, but this way the filter catches all the crap.
Cheap simple arrangement on a Featherbed frame.
I've been priming my oil filter on the suction side of the oil pump since the 1980s on my race & street bikes.
But no I don't recommend it any more than I recommend making your own oil filter assembly - which I did.
I use a Fram ph3506. Oil comes out of the center of the filter. It takes a plain pipe fitting set up so the threads tighten up in the center hole of the filter when the filter is fully home on the rubber seal - trick is setting the pipe threads at the correct protrusion and also tight & leakproof in the aluminum plate. I ended up using an Oring on the center pipe fitting to prevent minor weeping. Another small pipe fitting & hose to the side feeds oil into the filter.
I could just as easily run it on the pressure side, but this way the filter catches all the crap.
Cheap simple arrangement on a Featherbed frame.
I don't know what you mean by "sucking air into the oil"
Oil or any other liquid [except liquid metals] outgasses when it is placed under a vacuum. IE- some of the liquid changes into a gas. If the vacuum is high enough all of the liquid will be changed to a gas. The higher the temperature and the more the liquid is agitated the faster it changes to a gas. This is the reason pumps and shock absorbers cavitate and the reason fuel systems vapor lock.
I don't doubt you have been getting away with it - you obviously are using a filter with very little restriction at the low flow rate. I would hate to see what would happen if the filter got partially plugged. Jim
Oil or any other liquid [except liquid metals] outgasses when it is placed under a vacuum. IE- some of the liquid changes into a gas. If the vacuum is high enough all of the liquid will be changed to a gas. The higher the temperature and the more the liquid is agitated the faster it changes to a gas. This is the reason pumps and shock absorbers cavitate and the reason fuel systems vapor lock.
I don't doubt you have been getting away with it - you obviously are using a filter with very little restriction at the low flow rate. I would hate to see what would happen if the filter got partially plugged. Jim
Thanks for tickling me back WZ. 5 mu full flow filter really appeals after refreshing me that most wear size is 1 to 7 mu though Jim's 10 mu is certainly doing better than the regular ones. I'm stil spinning on potential 7x's less friction wear but can really translate that into extended Commando engines as they don't hardly ever seem to just wear out but seize dramatically by a sudden item failure that rarely has anything to do with friction wear. Big factor with oil wear protection is limiting time below cam break in rpms.
Next time ya get into some sludge, wd40 or gasoline clean it then put a magnet on dust to suck out the iron/steel component then see what' left that's Al bronze or Carbon and try to do the math.
Next time ya get into some sludge, wd40 or gasoline clean it then put a magnet on dust to suck out the iron/steel component then see what' left that's Al bronze or Carbon and try to do the math.
batrider
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nnnrh said:
(Actually you are closer to the topic than most.)
Earlier models didn't have them. Mine's a '72 combat. I added the filter the next year when I saw it on the first 850s. I bought a complete oil filter kit from the Norton dealer to upgrade. It had the filter base and two bendy coiled metal sleeves to protect the hoses. There was a template drawing to drill the holes in the cradle. It was not the easiest thing to drill as I remember.
I think it was very common for 750 owners to add the filter in the '70s.
Russ
Onder
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I like to think the bendy sleeves were the master stroke by the same engineer who put the filter in after he located the horn position.
They ain't that bendy and although they protect the oil lines quite well they spend their lives eating the cradle. Jim's filter idea wins
hands down.
They ain't that bendy and although they protect the oil lines quite well they spend their lives eating the cradle. Jim's filter idea wins
hands down.
comnoz said:
When I first started putting the oil filter on the suction side I knew I was doing something unusual so I made up a short glass tube and placed it in the suction oil line so I could watch the oil. There were no air bubbles - just pure clean oil going to the motor.
Its been a trouble free arrangement for 30 years. The problem with putting the filter on the pressure side is that sludge still settles out of the oil and builds up on the bottom of the oil tank. The accumulated sludge turns into solids and gets pulled into the oil line and embeds itself into the crank shell bearings and starts abraiding away at the the crank journals. Those sludge bits are the little black spots you see in the shell bearings when you do a rebuild.
But no - I don't recommend it for the average rider - they're not going to get in right and will probably forget to prime. I always check for oil squirting out the return pipe into the oil tank with each oil change. My last motor went 20 years of riding between rebuilds with this arrangement (using lightweight pistons to help keep the crank from cracking). And you probably need the high flow auto filter I'm using (its also cheap).
Id think in desert raceing , beach racing , and the wop wops with unsealed roads , itd be a bit safer on the feed .
Something that never saw tarmac , definately .
Something that never saw tarmac , definately .
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