Full Auto inlet valve seals

SteveA · Jul 15, 2014

I intend to ask Mick Hemmings who supplied my head, but does anyone have any knowledgeable input (Mr FullAuto?) regarding the installation of the supplied inlet valve seals...

I just dunked them in oil and slipped them over the valve and down on to teh valve guide, but I noticed that they grip the valve stem (Black Diamond) not the valve guide, which is just straight with no grooves to grip seals, so it looks like they will go up and down with the valve? Is this correct or did I miss something?

Something like what? Glueing them to the valve guide? its the only thing I could think you could do even if it seems unlikely!

I also notice that by compressing the valve spring to check coil bind/piston they are moved further up the stem....should I push them back down to establish a 'normal position'?

olChris · Jul 15, 2014

IMO, sounds OK to me.. Ive never fitted seals to the guide and had valves to operate independently.. I see the seals as an "umbrella" that finds its own place on the valve stem and deflects majority if oil splashes away from guide......

SteveA · Jul 15, 2014

olChris said:
IMO, sounds OK to me.. Ive never fitted seals to the guide and had valves to operate independently.. I see the seals as an "umbrella" that finds its own place on the valve stem and deflects majority if oil splashes away from guide......

I guess thats what I imagine happens really.....

auldblue · Jul 15, 2014

Hi

Are these valve guides and valves not fitted to such high tolerances that valve seals are of no value. Don't know for sure.

J

SteveA · Jul 15, 2014

auldblue said:
Hi

Are these valve guides and valves not fitted to such high tolerances that valve seals are of no value. Don't know for sure.

J

Full Auto only supply the head with guides, valves are your choice; I chose Kibblewhite Black Diamond modded for JSM beehive springs.

But you are right they are a close fit, however the seals were supplied with the head and they fit well over the guide, so I reckon they intend me to use them.

It may be true that in a race application I could leave them out....but I don't see a benefit in doing that.....but we will see what others say.

Steve

auldblue · Jul 15, 2014

Sorry steve misread your post " supplied seals".

Having only worked with Bog standard used parts myself. It must be good to fit the best.

Hope you get it sweet.
J

Mike Sullivan · Jul 15, 2014

I gave my head to Mick H in May for new inlet guides, when I collected it he recommended that I used the seals that have a small garter spring instead of those without.

I've had my head on off 3 times in the past 2 months - each time the seals were firmly located on the inlet guide (then again the un-sprung ones were still in position after 20k miles), Won't the stiction of the seal body on the guide more than overcome the oiled stem sliding through the wafer edge.

Iirc. some say that only the plain seals should be used, I am not technically qualified to comment!

Mike

Oops, I see I have wandered a bit off topic, apologies

SteveA · Jul 15, 2014

Mike Sullivan said:
I gave my head to Mick H in May for new inlet guides, when I collected it he recommended that I used the seals that have a small garter spring instead of those without.

I've had my head on off 3 times in the past 2 months - each time the seals were firmly located on the inlet guide (then again the un-sprung ones were still in position after 20k miles), Won't the stiction of the seal body on the guide more than overcome the oiled stem sliding through the wafer edge.

Iirc. some say that only the plain seals should be used, I am not technically qualified to comment!

Mike

Oops, I see I have wandered a bit off topic, apologies

Mike, trust Mick's advice for standard head and his guides....

The Full Auto guides are differentto standard Norton ones as far as I can see....they have no groove....the supplied seals have no ridge to fit in a valve guide groove either.....I assembled everything with oil for initial trial build....

....the supplied seals are sort of green with a metal shell and have a garter and they grip to the valve stem well....very well....unless....maybe....they are pushed up to where the valve stem narrows for the collet location....it could be that with standard Norton collars and springs, and a standard cam, it doesn't go that far....but with JSM Beehives and smaller collar and a PW3, they do....at least for the coil bind test.....

...I think if installed them fully down on the guide, and don't try to measure coil bind...they will move to a position at full open and stay there....after running the engine I may find out.....I just want to be sure I am not missing a trick.....someone will have used the combination of parts I have before.....won't they?

jseng1 · Jul 15, 2014

SteveA said:
Mike Sullivan said:

I gave my head to Mick H in May for new inlet guides, when I collected it he recommended that I used the seals that have a small garter spring instead of those without.

I've had my head on off 3 times in the past 2 months - each time the seals were firmly located on the inlet guide (then again the un-sprung ones were still in position after 20k miles), Won't the stiction of the seal body on the guide more than overcome the oiled stem sliding through the wafer edge.

Iirc. some say that only the plain seals should be used, I am not technically qualified to comment!

Mike

Oops, I see I have wandered a bit off topic, apologies

Click to expand...

Mike, trust Mick's advice for standard head and his guides....

The Full Auto guides are differentto standard Norton ones as far as I can see....they have no groove....the supplied seals have no ridge to fit in a valve guide groove either.....I assembled everything with oil for initial trial build....

....the supplied seals are sort of green with a metal shell and have a garter and they grip to the valve stem well....very well....unless....maybe....they are pushed up to where the valve stem narrows for the collet location....it could be that with standard Norton collars and springs, and a standard cam, it doesn't go that far....but with JSM Beehives and smaller collar and a PW3, they do....at least for the coil bind test.....

...I think if installed them fully down on the guide, and don't try to measure coil bind...they will move to a position at full open and stay there....after running the engine I may find out.....I just want to be sure I am not missing a trick.....someone will have used the combination of parts I have before.....won't they?

The JSM valves are the same length as Stock valves and the 5/16" diameter portion of the stem is the same length as stock valves. So nothing is different except that the top spring retaining collar is slightly higher and that has no effect at all on the seal (the beehive springs have a taller coil bind). The stock valves have the same amount of lift as JSM salves with the same cam and so the necked down portion at the top of the valve stem will be at the same location with either kind of valve. Those seals should grip on the valve guide and stay in place. The seals should not move up and down with the valve. Sounds like you have a mis-match of seals to guides. Get it right before assembling.

SteveA · Jul 15, 2014

jseng1 said:
The JSM valves are the same length as Stock valves and the 5/16" diameter portion of the stem is the same length as stock valves. So nothing is different except that the top spring retaining collar is slightly higher and that has no effect at all on the seal (the beehive springs have a taller coil bind). The stock valves have the same amount of lift as JSM salves with the same cam and so the necked down portion at the top of the valve stem will be at the same location with either kind of valve. Those seals should grip on the valve guide and stay in place. The seals should not move up and down with the valve. Sounds like you have a mis-match of seals to guides. Get it right before assembling.

Thanks Jim, the seals I have were supplied with the head and Angie Hemmings tells me they are the ones that Full Auto supply them, so this is not a mismatch, the parts are suppled to work together. I will disassemble, clean them of oil and see if they can be tightened up to stay down on the guide as I gently move the valve by hand, which is what I was doing when i discovered they moved.

Fullauto · Jul 17, 2014

Hi Steve,
Don't try to modify the seals. There has not been an issue so far so just use them and they should be fine.

SteveA · Jul 17, 2014

Fullauto said:
Hi Steve,
Don't try to modify the seals. There has not been an issue so far so just use them and they should be fine.

Ken I really appreciate you responding.

Perhaps I just need a different technique, or a better understanding of how they are supposed to work.

What I have done is lubricated the seal to allow the valve stem to run through the seal easily and not tear it....obviously I also lubed the valve stem....I pushed the seal on to the valve guide, fully home....pushed the valve through the guide at which time it lifts the seal off the guide....I pushed the seal back on the guide....and moved the valve in and out by hand....the seal remains gripped to the valve stem and does not grip the guide...it moves up and down with the valve....same on both cylinders.

I don't think that is what you intend to happen...so how will I get the seals to grip the guide without doing something?

Or should I just let them move?

My experience on other engine types is that even a groove in the valve guide and a lip on the seal that fits into the groove is no guarantee the seal wont move after time. But at least they stay in place till you finish the engine build...at which point generally you have stopped worrying about where they are and if they move!

cNw · Jul 17, 2014

Hi,

The intake valve guides should definitely have a shoulder on them where the seal will fit securely. As you push the valve up through the guide, the seal needs to stay in place

You can not have the seal just move up and down with the valve. If it does this, the seal wont do whats its intended to do

Get with your vendor and have them make sure everything is right. You spent good money with them and they need to follow through to make sure there are no other issues

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

SteveA · Jul 17, 2014

CNW said:
Hi,

The intake valve guides should definitely have a shoulder on them where the seal will fit securely. As you push the valve up through the guide, the seal needs to stay in place

Do your intake guides look the same as the exhaust guides ?

You can not have the seal just move up and down with the valve. If it does this, the seal wont do whats its intended to do

Get with your vendor and have them make sure everything is right. You spent good money with them and they need to follow through to make sure there are no other issues

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

I would have thought so Matt, it is a brand new unused head purchased this year in the UK, I waited for it to arrive from Australia and it was supplied to me in the Full Auto box, untouched and with the seals Full Auto provide.....

So I have no reason to doubt it is as it should be....but can any one provide a picture of the inlet and exhaust guide showing the shoulder so that I can compare?

Is it possible I am just not pushing down hard enough?

I stopped pushing when the parts came to a natural stop and didn't force it.

pete.v · Jul 17, 2014

SteveA said:
So I have no reason to doubt it is as it should be....but can any one provide a picture of the inlet and exhaust guide showing the shoulder so that I can compare?

Is it possible I am just not pushing down hard enough?

How about you sending a picture of what you have? This will clear up any doubt.
I assume your inlet guide should match any inlet guide that take a seal. There are many pictures available of these guides for you to match up.

SteveA · Jul 17, 2014

pete.v said:
SteveA said:

So I have no reason to doubt it is as it should be....but can any one provide a picture of the inlet and exhaust guide showing the shoulder so that I can compare?

Is it possible I am just not pushing down hard enough?

Click to expand...

How about you sending a picture of what you have? This will clear up any doubt.
I assume your inlet guide should match any inlet guide that take a seal. There are many pictures available of these guides for you to match up.

I am not sure that is true Pete, Full Auto head means Full Auto Guide and Full Auto Seal......they do not use standard Norton guides or seals....

Do you have a Full Auto head or guide, or seal?

Head is in one country I am in another....and photobucket is a total pain anyway....

A picture of a Full Auto Guide for me to compare would be much more useful...maybe Full Auto could send one....and a demonstration of just how this seal fits.

pete.v · Jul 17, 2014

SteveA said:
"]....the supplied seals are sort of green with a metal shell and have a garter and they grip to the valve stem well

Do you have a Full Auto head or guide, or seal?

Yes, I believe I may. Comnoz set me such a seal. It reqiured a special little driver to apply. Also, once set over the valve (JSM BeeHive setup) the valve cannot be removed without trashing the guide. Sound familure?

SteveA said:
Head is in one country I am in another....and photobucket is a total pain anyway....

So what i hear you say is that you pressed this seal over the valve, onto the guide, did some checking, then jumped on a plane and left it for us to figure out?

Photobucket may have learning curve, albeit a short one, but with such requests it might be a courtesy to the sanity of the membership at large to get through it.

Sorry, I get a little moody. It's all in good fun, but at who's expence, eh?

auldblue · Jul 17, 2014

Steve

You will have done loads of heads , so you know what a valve guide looks like , fullauto have a great rep it's unlikely they have ballsed it , so it's either them or you. Which punk is going to make our day?

J

pete.v · Jul 17, 2014

auldblue said:
Steve

You will have done loads of heads , so you know what a valve guide looks like , fullauto have a great rep it's unlikely they have ballsed it , so it's either them or you. Which punk is going to make our day?

J

Again, auldblue, rich with content and relevance. Awesome!

cNw · Jul 17, 2014

Steve,

If you look at the guide, there is a groove. If you look at the inside of the seal, there is a ridge.

You will need to put a fair amount of pressure on the seal to get seated all the way.

You can use a small socket that just fits over the spring side of the seal

Lubricate the seal where it will fit over the guide

Put an extension on the socket so you can get you hand on it and push the seal square onto the guide. When its all the way home, the lower part of the seal will be almost all the way to the bottom of the guide

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com

Full Auto inlet valve seals

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