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Follower scar oil tests

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by comnoz, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. Dances with Shrapnel

    Dances with Shrapnel VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    There is the question; the $64,000 question.

    The MA rated oil I looked at seem to have a moderate to high Phosphorus and Zinc additives. Thinking out loud, there are different lubrication regimes; the four main ones are:
    • boundary,
    • mixed,
    • hydrodynamic, and
    • elasothydrodynamic (rolling elements, gear teeth and cams)

    Each regime probably has it's own unique means and methods to "more" slipperiness.

    My point with the clutch is, in which regime does it slip? I doubt the point loading in a clutch comes anywhere near that of a flat tappet in boundary regime where the Zinc and Phosphorus additives are activated. The additives may contribute in other lubrication regimes but I have not read nor heard from others on it.

    I think this point fits the thread here as my hunch is the test results presented here are probably looking at one lubrication regime in isolation - nothing wrong with that as I believe our Nortons may have special needs, be it lubrication or metallurgy.

    This goes back to a link provided worntorn (you) provided earlier which I thought was an excellent point (assuming it is accurate):

    https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our...trength-of-mobil-1-compared-with-royal-purple
     
  2. WZ507

    WZ507 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    As in any specialty, communication is often made difficult, or at least challenging, by the specific nomenclature employed by those intimately familiar with the technology area. From the recent flow of the discussion here today I am suspecting that we are experiencing this challenge, which can result in us talking apples and oranges rather than apples to apples.

    I’m no more than an interested reader and have no expertise whatsoever in oil formulation, but from the reading I've done suspect the nomenclature of oil formulating and additives might be tripping us up a slight bit. Specifically, when we include ZDDP in the category of "friction modifiers", we have departed from the nomenclature employed in the industry – which may lead to misperception/misunderstanding as our conversation flows on. Although ZDDP does reduce friction, it is generally referred to as an anti-wear agent, not a friction modifier. The term "friction modifier" is reserved for a different class of compounds all together (these molecules are more surfactant-like with a polar head group and long fatty tail that self assemble on a surface, but are easily displaced under higher pressure).

    I believe friction modifiers do in fact cause wet clutches to slip, and for this reason most (all?) motorcycle oils suitable for use with a wet clutch do not contain friction modifiers, but do contain ZDDP.

    https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28815/what-are-friction-modifiers

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0257897210003786

    Hope this helps to clarify rather than muddy the waters further.
     
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  3. Dances with Shrapnel

    Dances with Shrapnel VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    So in an attempt to unmuddy the waters, I am pretty sure "Friction Modifier" as it pertains to ZDDP etc. is in direct alignment with industry nomenclature.

    In your machinery lubrication reference above WZ507 it is referred to as "a stronger type of friction modifier characterized as an anti-wear additive". A distinction that was not lost in my previous post of the lubrication regimes.

    My point in my previous post was: what may be a targeted "Friction Modifier" in one (or two) lubrication regime(s), does little to nothing in another lubrication regime. An example might be a simple sleeve bearing running most of its life in the hydrodynamic regime benefits little from ZDDP whereas a cam over bucket four valve head might only need a less rigorous friction modifier whereas a flat tappet high spring load two valve head with an aggressive rocker ratio might need a "stronger friction modifier" (ie cubic meters of ZDDP per liter of oil):D

    Important points of distinction that I hope do not get lost here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
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  4. motorson

    motorson VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    I have been running Amsoil DOMINATOR 15W-50 Racing Oil in my Norton specifically because I want to take advantage of the fact that the engine oil does not need to be a clutch oil. The zinc level is high and it has the low friction additives. I'd like to see it tested as weil. If it is not too late to climb on board I'll send a quart over.
     
  5. olympus

    olympus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    All this oil specification chat is really great reading but.....
    As synthetic oils shouldn't be used until everything is bed in... what is the best mineral based product to be used at run in ???
     
  6. APRRSV

    APRRSV VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Is this writ in stone? I haven't read anything definitive on this.

    Ed
     
  7. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    Depends on the engine build, if you use cast iron rings and hone correctly then you need the rings to wear against the hone to bed in, synthetic oil will not allow this to happen so the rings do not bed in.
     
  8. elefantrider

    elefantrider VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    A few basic Amsoil vs Royal Purple tests found here:

     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  9. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Here is my new oil testing setup. It now has the ability to test a wide range of film strengths.

    One thing I have learned is some motor oils tend to create a stronger film as the temperature gets into the normal operating range, so now all the testing is done at an oil temperature starting at 190 f. As the follower load increases the oil temp rises above 190 due to friction.

     
    Nater_Potater likes this.
  10. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    I would like to see that one also, so send it on over.
     
  11. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    I’ve ignored that for years, and I’ve not suffered from pistons, rings or bores failing to wear in... or sometimes out...
     
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  12. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Oh dear !!!!
    So your thoughts on that HD50 result?
    Regards Mike
     
  13. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    I would say it is not suitable for a high performance Norton engine. Roller followers may be fine.
    It looks like it is comparable to the VR1.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  14. jaydee75

    jaydee75

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Great data! I love this thread. Can't wait to see more oils.
    Jaydee
     
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  15. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Thanks Jim, wonder how the high performance race cars using flat tappets are a proponent of the Driven oil.
    I am thinking maybe the HD 50 is no where the same spec as what is used in car engines.

    Back to more research for me for my race motor.

    Do you have access to this type? Torco TR 1 MPZ 10W40

    I have a drum of it and using it in my roadbike which has just had a freshen up with rings and bigend shells.
    Break in was done with Driven BR oil.
    http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/br40-break-in-10w-336html/
    Regards Mike
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  16. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    I suspect your right in thinking the motorcycle oil is not the same as the car oil, but I don't know.

    I will look for the Torco oil. I used it back in the 60's .

    Actually the Motul 300v 20-60 is closing in on the Royal Purple as we speak.
     
  17. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Thanks Jim, Im just about to fit that Fullauto head that I got off you (No #10) to see if I have Vv to Vv clearance with the JS2 cam and once that is done, Im ready to run it.
    So be good to go with a better oil if I can get my hands on something thats not cost restrictive.

    http://www.staparts.co.nz/View-A-Pr...le XPR racing oil 51 20W50 5gal (18.9L) 05051

    Doug McCrae said he used a Motul synthetic in his race bike, although said it was so slippery it got passed seals!!!

    Thanks for all your had work on this.
    Regards Mike
     
  18. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    And that is a new one....
     
  19. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Hi Jim, your graph sheet has the ID as Castrol, although you wrote Valvoline in your notes?
    Is it one in the same?
    Regards Mike
     
  20. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Thanks for noticing that.