First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 2013

beng · Aug 12, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

Dances with Visa said:
Fact: Those that I would consider "millionaires" earned it and were the ones with the most authentic original bikes - so go figure.

Do you consider your bikes to be authentic in any way Mr. Magyar? The Seeley 750s that you and Mr. Cummings sport around are very poor replicas of anything Seeley ever did. The original Seeley Commando had a Mk3 style frame without front down tubes and it had drum brakes.

Someone with the money to do it could build an accurate Seeley Commando, then it would be educational for the spectators and those looking at it on websites, it would recreate the experience of riding a vintage bike for the racer, and it would be preserving history.

The trend in AHRMA though is to completely ignore those three advantages though. When this is ignored then you are doing nothing special at all, nothing for anything or anyone but yourself. Anyone with your Visa card could do exactly what Magyar and Cummings do, order a pile of new repro parts, bolt them together and hit all the events.

Ianucci, McKeever and Poons, and others running real vintage bikes or accurate replicas are preserving some history, providing that education to those who look at their bikes and talk to them, and the riders of their original bikes are getting some authentic vintage experience. So they are doing a lot of things besides just spending money, and they are doing a lot of things for others than themselves.

AHRMA is certainly close to being at a low point in it's existence right now. Participants that make it a farce by ignoring the words Vintage and Historic are not going to help it go in any good direction.

wilkey113 · Aug 12, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

I feel like I've got to jump in here and add my take on things. I feel that the guys that feel the way I do, and the way beng feels, are in the absolute minority, and we generally just keep quite on these topics. The only real issue with AHRMA, is that the rules have gotten so lax, that nearly anything is allowed, and therefore over the past number of years, the replica bikes have gotten out of hand, and mostly dominate the podium. No real surprise that a newly made machine would win against an old original racing bike.
The issue is that some of us (myself included), look to AHRMA and other vintage motorcycle enthusiasts to preserve the history of these bikes, wether it be on the track, on the road, or simply in your garage. So to see so many bikes in the paddock, and on the track, that bear almost no resemblance to an original racing motorcycle, is a real shame. And, in almost every single case, the "replica" bike doesn't actually replicate anything that was ever raced. So the question is, what's it replicating? But the rules allow it. Anyone can buy whatever repro part they want that was based on a design that was manufactured before a certain year, and bolt together some frankenstien machine.
The standards are fairly low. I'd hope that anyone involved in this, would have a genuine interest in keeping a high standard and replicating a race bike, as it would have existed in the era. I obviously understand the delicate nature of racing a real old race bike. Certainly they can't be replaced, so nobody wants to see it getting thrown down the track. So in my opinion, go ahead and build a replica bike. But make sure that what it is, actually replicates something.
At the end of the day I barely care what others are doing. My opinion and this forum probably won't change anyone's opinion. So who cares? I'll make 1 example, and then leave it at that. Remember back to the first time you saw an old motorcycle, or an old race bike. Not knowing anything, but falling in love with it for the first time. And let's say you were to be in that position today. Going to the vintage races for your very first time, and seeing these bikes for the very first time. So what you'd see is a bunch of race bikes that you'd think and assume are old originals, or replica bikes that actually replicate a real racing machine of the era. And the sad part is, you'd be seeing a whole bunch of stuff that's incorrect. How long do you think it'll take a newcomer to figure out what's real and what isn't? How many mistakes will that newcomer make when buying or building a bike, when what they saw is totally wrong.
I'd hope that grown men involved in vintage motorbikes, would have a pretty high standard. But any governing body is supposed to assume that people don't have those standards. So that's where the organization steps in and governs the entrants to ensure the high standards are kept. In the case of AHRMA, this just isn't happening. Maybe anyone entering a replica bike, should have to prove what it's replicating.
Rich guy, poor guy, I personally don't care. It'd be nice to see people out on original Dominators, in racing trim, and being raced, enjoyed and seen by spectators. Represented authentically. Ianucci is a rich guy, but he raced real machines. So that point, in my opinion is invalid. I'd love to see Ianucci's original machines, on the grid with some poor guys home built Dominator etc. Let it come down to rider skill, one's ability to tune the bike, and just a proper representation of what these old bikes were.
I think it's off that these threads always start and end the same way. Any time that an opinion is disagreed with, and the opinion doesn't stroke someone in the pack, then that person is sad and negative. It's a forum, isn't it? Healthy debate, honest opinions, sharing of facts? What happened to all of that? To me, I admire the strong conviction when someone speaks out. Think about it like this; for every 1 person that posts an opinion against the replica bikes and AHRMA, there's 100 more guys out there that feel the same way, but don't bother posting. Usually for fear of being talked crap on, or simply because they don't care enough to enter into the argument.
Ok, I'm done. Please feel free to pull quotes and tear my opinion to shreds. I honestly don't care. The opinions of others won't change how I feel about it, and they certainly won't change the facts.

Dances with Shrapnel · Aug 12, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

wilkey113 said:
I think it's off that these threads always start and end the same way. Any time that an opinion is disagreed with, and the opinion doesn't stroke someone in the pack, then that person is sad and negative. It's a forum, isn't it? Healthy debate, honest opinions, sharing of facts? What happened to all of that? To me, I admire the strong conviction when someone speaks out. Think about it like this; for every 1 person that posts an opinion against the replica bikes and AHRMA, there's 100 more guys out there that feel the same way, but don't bother posting. Usually for fear of being talked crap on, or simply because they don't care enough to enter into the argument.
Ok, I'm done. Please feel free to pull quotes and tear my opinion to shreds. I honestly don't care. The opinions of others won't change how I feel about it, and they certainly won't change the facts.

Honestly wilkey113, do you think being accused of circle jerk is an honest opinion or more of talked crap on? I call it pathos and pathological? That is what it comes down to on this matter with this one particular individual. Your opinions are understood and respected. No, many of these bikes are not original bikes as they are replicas. Note what I stated above about original "authentic" bikes and who own and race them - mostly millionaires which flies in the face of what one individual is trying to portray. So maybe AHMRA is not semantically 100% correct but if you want 100% correct there are not enough deep pockets to make it happen. This is history, accept it, reject it or change it but don't make it an ad hominem attack on a group of people as beng (Benjamin Grabler) has done so often.

I am reasonably sure the beng is not a member of AHRMA so has no intention of trying to implement change but rather chooses to whine on the side lines of life. I have no problem with AHRMA moving towards accommodating true vintage bikes, just a matter of enough interest being expressed, money in deep pockets and people to participate.

Dances with Shrapnel · Aug 12, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

beng said:
Do you consider your bikes to be authentic in any way Mr. Magyar? The Seeley 750s that you and Mr. Cummings sport around are very poor replicas of anything Seeley ever did. The original Seeley Commando had a Mk3 style frame without front down tubes and it had drum brakes.

I never used the words authentic when referring to my bike and never really thought about it much to tell you the truth - too busy enjoying the hell out of building bikes, racing, friendships and race track camaraderie. To me, historical details, though interesting, are not the primary focus other than as a footnote. I am more concerned with abiding by the rules as they are set out by AHRMA and its members. Colin Seeley was best known as a frame designer & builder so what Seeley did is design and build the frames and some components. The Seeley Mk2 is deemed better suited for the Commando twin engine by many in the know so is there a point here you are trying to make?

I personally like the design implications of a Mk2 and looking forward in history how the Seeley Mk2 influenced modern bike frame design. The frames you refer to are made by Roger Titschmarsh who worked for Colin Seeley. As I understand it, Roger is sanctioned or endorsed by Colin Seeley. So yes, these are replica frames. I would not want to use an original Colin Seeley frame as I am told that they are not as durable and are probably better suited for a museum. Someone before me somewhere started racing a Commando in a Mk2 frame and the historical details do not interest me too much other than to know it was done. This is all a bit moot as I am using a Nourish 8 valve engine in a Seeley Mk 2 and it goes like hell! Do you approve beng? :roll: Do I really care?

beng said:
Someone with the money to do it could build an accurate Seeley Commando, then it would be educational for the spectators and those looking at it on websites, it would recreate the experience of riding a vintage bike for the racer, and it would be preserving history.

Now you are espousing the virtue of the millionaires. Keep on going. :lol: You see, this is the rub. You cannot get to where you want to as there are not enough out there that are willing and able to do this. There are a few who lament over the dilemma even though they apparently cannot recognize it.

beng said:
The trend in AHRMA though is to completely ignore those three advantages though.

Read the AHRMA charter.

beng said:
When this is ignored then you are doing nothing special at all, nothing for anything or anyone but yourself. Anyone with your Visa card could do exactly what Magyar and Cummings do, order a pile of new repro parts, bolt them together and hit all the events.

Opinions vary. Is there something bad here?

beng said:
Ianucci, McKeever and Poons, and others running real vintage bikes or accurate replicas are preserving some history, providing that education to those who look at their bikes and talk to them, and the riders of their original bikes are getting some authentic vintage experience. So they are doing a lot of things besides just spending money, and they are doing a lot of things for others than themselves.

Ianucci, doing something for others?????????????? No bone to pick with Rob as I liked the guy but there's a long and dreadful history there so let's get real. McKeever's was dropped in the rain at NJMP so how many more can that bike take? Poons bike is an authentic Condor and hats off to him but it has been run through the ringer. World of respect to all of them and enjoy seeing them as part of the program.

beng said:
AHRMA is certainly close to being at a low point in it's existence right now. Participants that make it a farce by ignoring the words Vintage and Historic are not going to help it go in any good direction.

Opinions clearly vary on this. Low point? Ha! Been to AHRMA at Barber Race Track lately? :lol: :lol: I encourage everyone to try and make Barber as there's a lot of everything for everyone there.

So opinions vary and desires and wishes vary but apologies to the forum members for having little patience with the attitude of Grabler who appears to choose to just stand on the side lines and whine and name call rather than make something happen or attend and participate in an event WERA, AHRMA or whatever.

Oh yes and we get your point that a few with less than 100% original bikes are doing such a disservice to the masses :roll:

wilkey113 · Aug 13, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

I can only express my opinion on these topics. I don't get upset with what people say, or how they say it. I think it's good to see people getting hot about these topics. It shows strong conviction and true passion. Sometimes we have to speak loudly and say certain things in order to make our point. That's the foundation for healthy debate. I also think the forum can be a good place for us all to keep each other in check. If we're all honest about the facts and sharing that information with each other, I think it helps to preserve history accurately. I don't think that we all need to high 5 each other all the time. Often times, we should be saying "hey, that's wrong, or incorrect". As a way to have checks and balances. None of us know everything, so once we share information here, then I think it's healthy for others to comment in order to get to the facts.

One thing I definitely know, is that the internet is open forum, and anyone that puts something up, is open to scrutiny from others. We've got to have a bit of thick skin and tolerance for each other. I'm pretty sure the goal here is to enjoy these old bikes and the era in which they were built. I feel that we're all simply stewards of these machines, and should hold them in high regard. I love these old Nortons. And I love them for what they are, and what they were. So for me, I celebrate their history and go out of my way to preserve them so that anyone that comes after me, that falls in love with them the way I did, gets to enjoy them accurately.

I'm a student of history, and enjoy discovering, researching and discussing the facts about the rich history of Norton motorcycles and and racing of the era. That's all trapped in time now, so the facts and the bikes are all we have. There's no speculation as to what might have happened or what might have come of things. It's simply what it is. And that's why I don't understand what AHRMA is doing. I get the fact that they have to do certain things to drum up interest and participation. I also get the fact that they have to make certain concessions for safety reasons. I would think that all of us that are interested in vintage motorcycle racing, and the people at AHRMA, would want to preserve original bikes, or accurate replicas of original bikes. But perhaps the interest would be so low with those rules, that it simply wouldn't exist. Maybe I live in some utopian world inside my brain.

My last point is simple. The cost of racing isn't cheap, regardless of the type of bike. But, for the cost of any Seeley replica race bike, one could put together a truly awesome Dominator, Atlas or Commando. And then take the left over cash, buy a few more bikes, a a used panel van to get them to the track and a whole bunch of spares to keep everything running. Some day, when finances permit, I'd like to put my money where my mouth is, and wrench my own Dominator into race ready condition, show up at the track and have a good time. That to me would be the racing experience to have.

grandpaul · Aug 15, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

I read some nominally fair / arguable comments, some exaggerated, and some accurate ones here. Such is any typical forum discussion.

AHRMA is the best we have here in the 'states, (with respect to classic motorcycle racing), take it or leave it. If you attended this year's Mid-Ohio event, you'd have seen a textbook illustration of the term "a shadow of it's former self"; since AHRMA left, it is clear who has what people want to see. Considering the economic condition of the country at this point in time, I think AHRMA is doing an admirable job to amass the grids they have by this point in the season (also considering the raw distances between events).

I don't think I know of a single AHRMA member that tries to pass off his/her race bike as anything it's not; anyone stopping to chat in the pits will get the facts on what they are looking at.

I also don't believe a newcomer to the sport would attempt to build a race bike from memory and a few snapshots, but would do some research on the topic and make some inquiries from reputable sources AFTER CONSULTING THE RULEBOOK.

I built an essentially bone stock '69 Triumph Bonneville 650 and raced in Novice Historic Production Heavyweight against OHC Hondas and 750 triples; yes, there were some that skirted the "letter of the law", but we all had fun and I personally encouraged at least three new racers to build bikes and get into it. Oh, by the way, I'm not a millionaire, and while I met hundreds of other racers, I never met a single one that was anywhere close to a millionaire.

I think encouragement, information and invitation will go farther than criticism and personal attacks, in furthering what little classic racing we have left these days with green weenies forcing ever-stricter rules & regulations on us.

beng · Aug 18, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

grandpaul said:
green weenies forcing ever-stricter rules & regulations on us.

I can not see what impact environmentalists had on vintage racing? But when it gets too hot down south to run an air cooled bike reliably, then I can see what impact the environment will have on it, but seeing that takes foresight.

grandpaul · Aug 18, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

beng said:
grandpaul said:

green weenies forcing ever-stricter rules & regulations on us.

Click to expand...

I can not see what impact environmentalists had on vintage racing? But when it gets too hot down south to run an air cooled bike reliably, then I can see what impact the environment will have on it, but seeing that takes foresight.

Rampant environmentalism has SEVERLY curtailed racing events in the US from coast to coast. I was referring to the problem in general, not AHRMA specifically.

Snorton74 · Aug 18, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

'Rampant environmentalism' sounds like a term coined by Rick Perry. Now what were those three agencies of government he wanted to get rid of ? Sounds like more FOX noise.

grandpaul · Aug 18, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

We need more EXHAUST noise.

...on race tracks.

motorson · Aug 25, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

I run non-ethanol fuel in my Norton because I lined the tank a few years back. It does not take much study to know that the ethanol craze is bad for the environment but don't tell an environmentalist!! I think that everyone who rides a Norton should be concerned about the law and see the writing on the wall that says our bikes will be illegal in just a few years.

Chris · Sep 14, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

Hi

Thought I would add a bit to this little debate.
We have 2 racing clubs in the UK
Historic ie the vintage racing club. Older bikes drum brakes great stuff good riders fantastic racers. This club now run a specials class in 3 groups 250 500 unlimited. The have also started a bears class. They have scooter racing (fabulous to watch) a Bantam formula class.
CRMC riders can race with them as invited guests & the Landsdowne club do join them for a meeting. As they do with CRMC BSB ect.
Slowly dying?
The very old bikes ie 1930s have all but disappeared. Engineers build new cranks cast new cases but original bikes are worth lots of money & unless someone has a son to pass it on to ?
The newer classes help the club to survive.

Crmc up to 72
Well it was. I should think the post classic numbers over 50 percent. We have proddie classes, up to 600 unlimited. 750 & unlimited post classic up to 86 no 4 valve heads or liquid cooled. We have my favourite Aircooled road based engines any chassis up to 38mm forks , 500cc Blinding mixture of bikes all home buildable. 3 cylinder Spondon Kawazaki Honda 400/4s Tr 500 Suzukis single cylinder Hondas & Yams, Rd400s Kawazaki 400 twins (out to 498) & this season a XS500.
Dommies Bonnies Matchless ajs twins? Been racing 20 years & have seen very few. Proddie class died years ago. (3 bikes) no interest. The rest claimed it was a waste of time against the Rob Norths. Valid point but we have suggested a standard class to get these bikes out again with a few people saying they would. None out there yet. The big class is separated into twins & multis & we have very mixed but full grids.
I was no 40 of 42 on the grid at Donnington & we had 21 races.
If you race & you run an original bike that's fantastic but after 3 crankcases in 2 meetings building a replica makes a lot of sense.
How close it is to original is up to other racers to scrutineer & contest

Chris

grandpaul · Sep 15, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

I seemed to be the only person suggesting that AHRMA "production" classes should have been strictly limited to OEM cams, cranks, heads pistons, etc; the problem is it's too complicated to police with an all-volunteer organization that is already short staffed. The tech crew ONLY inspect for SAFETY, not class compliance. So it's up to the racers to police class compliance; otherwise known as the "honor system".

Anyway, the production heavyweight class has traditionally seen grids of 3 to 6 riders except at Barber, Daytona and previously Mid-Ohio which were the big draws. That, and it's almost always different riders at each far-flung tracks, not many people can afford to run more than a handful of races each year.

motorson · Sep 15, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

How about a class where it has to "look" exactly stock except maybe for an oil cooler and absolutely anything goes down inside??!!!
That would be a fun, fast class!

grandpaul · Sep 16, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

motorson said:
How about a class where it has to "look" exactly stock except maybe for an oil cooler and absolutely anything goes down inside??!!!
That would be a fun, fast class!

That is EXACTLY what the AHRMA "production" class has become.

phillyskip · Sep 16, 2013

Re: First Topic - New Jersey Motorsports Park 8/2-3 & 4, 201

I went to the event on Sat. with a group of pals. The racing was great and the venue/track is very nice. The event was poorly promoted. I hope they do a better job next year. They said there was going to be a bike show,but that never materialized. Kenny Cummings was very nice in letting us get up close to his Sealy Norton,and for explaining the special features.....PhillySkip