Featherbed FACTS.

Hi Richard

I believe it fits in the bottom of the battery box.

Agreed bottom of the battery box.

acotrel said:

My mate was happy to tell me that he beat a Minnovation Seeley 750 with his RZ350 Yamaha - probably as fast as a TD3 ? To me it does not mean anything. It is all 'horses for courses', when they are stuck to the wall like flies. Have a look at Moto GP these days - where do they pass ? It is never on a straight or a long sweeping bend - usually in the tight corners.

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Sorry but an RZ350 is not even close to as fast as a TD3. at least a 20 mph speed differential. And it was first built 12years later.

annajeannette said:

reynolds tubes dating stamp number its on the top endge of the top lug for the engine steady just at the back of the head stock in very small numbers a a letter you need to scrap the paint of to see anything

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Just so, and as a further bit of featherbed minutiae I have recently discovered the letter E stamped on the right hand side of said engine steady lug on the frame of my 1954 Dominator. The stamping on the top of mine is M/4/54. The letter M appears on frames from different years, so possibly is not date-related. Frame number is 122 575xx.

sammysnail said:

Just so, and as a further bit of featherbed minutiae I have recently discovered the letter E stamped on the right hand side of said engine steady lug on the frame of my 1954 Dominator. The stamping on the top of mine is M/4/54. The letter M appears on frames from different years, so possibly is not date-related. Frame number is 122 575xx.

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AND ........ twins have the pump mounting brackets on the right hand side, whereas Inters seem to all have them on the left.

There was some other small changes to the Manx frame too. Chain oil in frame. The fairing mounting "block" on the steering head. Have one on mine as it was built in a batch for John Surtees. Some call it a GP frame.
Might be some changes in 1960 to fit the improved oil tank.
Someone mentioned RG250. If I remember correctly, it had 16 and 18 inch wheel. We swapped to TZR fork and wheels to get 17". No slicks available in 16 or 18". Luckily it handles very well.

I read somewhere that someone measured an existing frame (wrongly !) so that they could publish the frame angles , possibly because could not be bothered to find orriginal drawing . Which is why there is conflicting information . Sounds a bit unlikely ,but someone knows!. The orriginal irish frame jigs turned up recently on someones farm in a TV programme.

lcrken said:

Great letter. Ken says pretty much the same thing in his book, but we've never been able to convince Acotrel that the head angle wasn't 24 degrees. Hey, that's part of life on a forum.

Ken

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24.5 degrees with 19 inch wheels. Have you measured it? A TD3 Yamaha has 26 degree rake with 18 inch wheels, and all Seeleys have 27 degree rake with 18inch wheels. Aftermarket featherbed frames in Australia usually have 26 degree rake and 18 inch wheels, and handle like Suzukis. When I got my Mk3 Seeley, it had 450 Ducati fork yokes, the Ducati steering head is much more vertical. I ended up with about 94mm of trail, using 18 inch wheels - the bike mishandled dangerously. The offset on the Ducati yokes was 65mm, I now use Yamaha fork yokes which have 53mm of offset, and I now have about 106mm of trail. It is important. When you fit 18 inch wheels to a Manx frame with Manx yokes, the steering becomes much heavier. If it had 26 degree rake with Manx yokes, it would handle like a Japanese two-stroke - neutral steering - it would not over-steer when the bike is accelerated in mid corner. That is the reason, the Manx Norton is faster than many other bikes of the same capacity. Also the motor must be as far forward in the frame as possible. The difference in handling between a Seeley and a Manx is bloody ridiculous. A Seeley G50 would run rings around a Manx. The fastest British 350cc single in the 1960s was the Seeley 7R AJS. Peter Williams raced the Arter 350 cc AJS - 'Wagon Wheels' - The first Commandos had that steering geometry, and a few kids crashed them after riding over cats' eyes in slippery roads. Peter Williams was embarrassed and the trail was reduced by changing the yokes. I suggest there are no Seeley G50s at the Goodwood Revival. It would be a different game. When you look at a racing motorcycle - they all look similar, and many guys blame their own riding ability when they are slower. More trail and smooth power delivery are much faster.

I noticed the comment about the RZ350 being a modern bike. Its only difference from a 1960s TR3 is it has reed valves and a controlled exhaust port. I know what my mate rides like - he would not have beaten my Seeley 850 with the RZ350. The guy he beat was Lyall Williamson on a Seeley 750, who probably had not raced in the previous 20 years. If I race, I never care what the other guys are riding as long as I know what their bikes are. Different bikes are faster and slower at different parts of a race circuit. But in a classic race, a Seeley is a good weapon.

This bike would be an easy winner at the Goodwood Revival :

acotrel said:

24.5 degrees with 19 inch wheels. Have you measured it? A TD3 Yamaha has 26 degree rake with 18 inch wheels, and all Seeleys have 27 degree rake with 18inch wheels. Aftermarket featherbed frames in Australia usually have 26 degree rake and 18 inch wheels, and handle like Suzukis. When I got my Mk3 Seeley, it had 450 Ducati fork yokes, the Ducati steering head is much more vertical. I ended up with about 94mm of trail, using 18 inch wheels - the bike mishandled dangerously. The offset on the Ducati yokes was 65mm, I now use Yamaha fork yokes which have 53mm of offset, and I now have about 106mm of trail. It is important. When you fit 18 inch wheels to a Manx frame with Manx yokes, the steering becomes much heavier. If it had 26 degree rake with Manx yokes, it would handle like a Japanese two-stroke - neutral steering - it would not over-steer when the bike is accelerated in mid corner. That is the reason, the Manx Norton is faster than many other bikes of the same capacity. Also the motor must be as far forward in the frame as possible. The difference in handling between a Seeley and a Manx is bloody ridiculous. A Seeley G50 would run rings around a Manx. The fastest British 350cc single in the 1960s was the Seeley 7R AJS. Peter Williams raced the Arter 350 cc AJS - 'Wagon Wheels' - The first Commandos had that steering geometry, and a few kids crashed them after riding over cats' eyes in slippery roads. Peter Williams was embarrassed and the trail was reduced by changing the yokes. I suggest there are no Seeley G50s at the Goodwood Revival. It would be a different game. When you look at a racing motorcycle - they all look similar, and many guys blame their own riding ability when they are slower. More trail and smooth power delivery are much faster.

Arter-1-Main-jpg hosted at ImgBB

Image Arter-1-Main-jpg hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

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There's definitely something wrong with you!

baz said:

There's definitely something wrong with you!

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24.5 degrees is with methanol

Baz, did you note the comment earlier in this thread re the flat on the top tube being for the International motor?

It answers the question about that ‘Manx’ frame you were looking at a while back.

We need an emoji smoking a doob.

Fast Eddie said:

24.5 degrees is with methanol

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24 deg. with a drum front brake.

Come on guys, give us and Al a break. Take this rant to the Pub area.

- Knut

mdt-son said:

Come on guys, give us and Al a break. Take this rant to the Pub area.

- Knut

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Yes that's exactly where it should be because stating the same wrong information over and over again can never make it factual

My mate's Triton has an original Manx frame. I discussed the rake with him because 24.5 degrees is a strange rake. I have often wondered how Rex and Cromie McCandless got it right. A Manx which has 19 inch wheels oversteers positively if gassed when on a lean. It means it can be ridden faster in corners, if the motor is well forward. My mates motor is a bit back , and he has 18 inch wheels. His bike is nicely neutral in corners, but cannot be ridden as fast, however on a straight, - it is much faster than many other bikes of similar capacity. If a Manx had 26 degree rake with 19 inch wheels, it would have more trail and be very twitchy. A Manx is usually stable and purposeful. A Manx with 18 inch wheels would be too stable, unless the rake was 26 degrees - after-market frames would use that rake with 18 inch wheels. You need to ride them and be used to them to detect the difference. I fitted 18 inch wheels to my Triton, to get better rubber. It was no faster in corners, but exhausting to ride. If the frame had 26 degree rake, it would have been much better, with 18 inch wheels. My motor was as far forward as possible. A Manx is always better than a Triton, because of the weight distribution. When the weight is well forward, the bike can be ridden faster. When I first got my 500cc Triton, I made a new set of engine plates to move the motor. When the motor is back, the cosmetics might be nicer - most Tritons are built that way. That mate with the 650 Triton was my main rival - so I did not mention this to him. He does not know the reason that I could thrash him and most others, easily in corners.
A little thing such as that can make a lot of difference.
If you know someone who has a genuine 500cc Manx, it is worth paying them to let you ride it. The 1951 500cc Manx I rode, taught me a lesson. I had ridden a lot of motorcycles. A Manx Norton is not bullshit. They do it much better.

norton bob said:

I read somewhere that someone measured an existing frame (wrongly !) so that they could publish the frame angles , possibly because could not be bothered to find orriginal drawing . Which is why there is conflicting information . Sounds a bit unlikely ,but someone knows!. The orriginal irish frame jigs turned up recently on someones farm in a TV programme.

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A magnetic based protractor is useful - stick it on a fork leg.. My project bike has an Egli frame with the same geometry and running gear as an RG250 Suzuki. In two models, there is 0.5 degree difference in the rake - the first model had a 17 inch front wheel with an 18 inch rear wheel - the second had 17 inch wheels front and back. It makes a difference. My frame with 17 inch wheels front and back gives a rake of 25 degrees - same as the later RG250. It is important - wrong can mean a crash. The bike has a two stroke motor, it needs to be stable.

It is really silly. The best handling road bike I had, was a Tribsa. It had a BSA A10 frame with 1963 model Triumph 650 fork yokes and 19 inch wheels. A BSA A10 usually handles like a piece of garbage. The standard BSA fork yokes have a lot more offset, which reduce the trail. I think some people believe steering geometry is like the castors on a piano. However less trail makes the bike more stable, which is good for beginners. But with much less trail, the bike can stand-up and turn the wrong way when braking.