Ethonal "Proof" tank sealer myth.

A friend who is a long time professinal bike restorer called to tell me he found that Caswells was making a "new" tank sealer called Red Dragon that they said was now Ethonal proof. Having a background in science my friend pestered the Caswell people until they let him talk to the tech people in charge of it. They finnaly came clean with the fact that it is exactly the same stuff as there normal tank sealer but has a red dye added so you can see any missed spots and therefore get better coverage. Oh btw, the few drops of dye must be made from some rare Dragon cuz it ups the price quite a bit. Has anyone tride this stuff?

Caswell's 2 part sealer is Novalac resin, about the most affordable alcohol resistance substance available and commonly used to resist ethanol. Its a crap shoot if you can get away with it like me and my buddy for half a decade, but we didn't spare the resin and lost some tank capacity with such thick coatings, as in more than once applied after pretty good almost hard set up. Acetone and its meaner relatives is the right stuff to try to remove interfering layer on fiber tanks and break down some of factory gel coat for decent adhesion but must not be left in more than few sloshng minutes then THOROUGHLY heat evaporated out of all the micro pores and crevices to molecules of acetone mingling affinity among factory resin polymers, which means like 24 hour of hot forced air even better if in full sun too. Any break in the Novalac like around filler cap will be ticking leak time bomb again. A lot of folks claim Hirsh sealer worked for them but I don't know its chemistry so contact them for their sales pitch too. Can learn more and see what you are up against searching up boat and aircraft tank sealing against booze spiked gasoline. I think its illegal to sell ethanol for aircraft and a whole lot of Gov't fleets refuse ethanol d/t the extra maintaince and failure rates. Can not store this new age gas either.

I read on some boatbuilding forums that Vinyl ester resin works well in resisting Ethanol, but I've got no direct experience of this.
Can anyone shed any light?

Agree with Hobot regarding Acetone - I just cleaned out a Ducati Imola tank and the acetone removed all the resin inside, leaving bare glassfiblre ready for that 'special preparation' I've yet to decide on. After 3 flushes I rinsed it out with water to lift out any remaining flakes, and kept at it with a heat gun and sunlight (even in Lancashire!) for 3 days. Still plenty of time to dry out thoroughly before I order 'whatever'.

I also note that Burton Bike Bits are advertising Ethanol proof 'glass tanks - has anyone taken the plunge?

Vinyl resin is rather expensive I think and mainly available to industrial size orders. I think Novalac is as good or better when reviewing the chemical details of various resins vs temperature and solvents involved. About nothing can resist acetone and meaner relatives once near boiling. Reason brake fluid works so well on best paints.

I used Caswells on a fiberglass roadster tank about 9 or 10 years ago. Others appear to have better success with this product than I did. My glorious black acrylic lacquer started a minor crack about 4 or 5 months after coating and painting. The cracks progressed, then the tank sides started swelling. It never leaked but I suspect that would have been the next event. I put way too much time in these paint jobs for this kind of thing to happen.

I gave up and reworked a steel tank about 8 years ago. It still looks as good as when the paint was new. I've since replaced the fiberglass tanks on all my Commandos. The cracked fiberglass tank now serves as a mock-up while building my latest '73 850.

Yes proof its a crap shoot even Jim Comstock got snake eyes on his Caswell failures.

Jean, for one, cut a tank open and used vinyl ester prior to top coating with a tank liner. I believe he has had good results. Take a look at his build thread for details.

It’s interesting that the new improved Caswells only contains a red dye. I have only recently heard about Caswells containing Novalic resin. I assumed it was an addition to their product after numerous complaints on this forum.

Sir Carbonfiber, subtly informed me that Novolic resin was one of the only product that would hold up to the ethanol fuels. So in an attempted to obtain some Novalic resin I found out that it was basically unattainable, unless I was willing to buy a 50 gallon drum. It apparently also has a very short shelf life.

Carbon put down Caswell's Novalac kit as too diluted by other stuff, so maybe we could chip in for a barrel of it to share, if we knew it'd do the job eh.

hobot said:

Carbon put down Caswell's Novalac kit as too diluted by other stuff, so maybe we could chip in for a barrel of it to share, if we knew it'd do the job eh.

Click to expand...

It’s been a while, but I think it was about $300. Not bad. All you need to do is divide it up into quarts, ship it out and use it up within that short shelf life of a month. Seriously, if you could get the commitment form ten or fifteen guys it could be cost effective.

Say what, only a month shelf life and only one component mentioned in a two part epoxy, does not compute to me. If we knew the industrial grade would do the job on any tank then best plan would be someone to take on a a bunch of tanks in one shop with standardized protocols. Best wishes getting enough market to work out as planned. Cutting open is drastic to me but maybe the only salvation long term so worth it. On the other hand them India fellas are not all bad so maybe worth while to take a few under wing and get them up to speed on their production and tooling. I'm not worthy or capable of that so just saying...

if you do a search you'll find endless threads about sealers and caswell - with many documenting its failure at some point in time and the catastrophic event that can occur should the resin get into your intake valves etc etc
m

I knew there were a million threads on sealers including caswels I was just wondering if anyone had tryed this so called "new" type they are calling red dragon thinking it was a new formula. Truth is it's not new just has color added so you can more easily tell when it's mixed well enough. The guy from caswels said they think some failures are due to people not mixing it well.

This last Ducati tank page agrees with my experience to far in two tanks that I've crashed on that needed JBW outside repair but inside stayed sealed by the 2nd generation Caswell coat giving with the deformation to stay adhered. Handle bar bent into IS fb tank to leave shattered gel coat and grass fibers frayed out in inch long pencil deep groove and a steel roadster tank handle bars bent so bent wrist leave impression like a fist into clay. I also crashed my buddies '71 HyRyder fb tank when drum brake locked on sand/grit layer going 30 mph to shove head steady into underside to leak. JBW plug has lasted 2 yr even on out of side trips full of boozed gasoline. Crap shoot but less so if one builds up a second tank inside first with etched clean surface and like almost 1/4" thick layer-ing.
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/11-ducati-m ... ory-4.html

Sonoco Purple 110; Mine's Caswelled but now I have no worries. Pipes smell great too!

TK

This was first attempt at trying the Caswell product. I recently sealed 3 tanks with their clear tank product. Two steel tanks and one plastic. I can attest the product is rock solid when cured. The mixing container I used I will guarntee never to leak My main concern was sealing the effected areas of the tanks in question so if I missed any of the top portion of the tanks and they start to leak the tank is probably shot anyway.

I did a Kreem coating once many years ago on a steel tank before corn squeezing's became legal and it didn;t last long.
It's all we have for now to use on our precious toys to keep them on the road.........so ride on !


Tim_S

Tim, how could ya miss any area of the tank if kept tumbling to keep the spreading going till everwhere gelled near set up. I leave tanks so trouble area get the most time and set up and even a another layer. You see what your mix container is like, imagine similar inside tank. I swear we could build whole tank out of nothing but Caswell 2 part sealer. Just put some fibers in the layers to add strength to the brittle epoxy and store vodka in it.

I think the only difference between the original Caswells and the new stuff is the red dye, but this is not some kind of "new and improved" scam. They put the dye in to make it easier to see the coating in the tank during the coating process. Otherwise it's the same as the old stuff, which is fine because the old stuff is very good.

The critical thing is tank preparation. No offense, but I suspect the people knocking it here didn't do it right. (And the instructions aren't clear in many areas, so it's not necessarily your fault). I wrote an article in Norton News #156 (Rally Issue, 2009) on how I coated my Interstate tank in 2008. The main thing is that YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST dry the tank thoroughly after both the detergent/water rinse and the acetone rinse. I used air from a reversed (and clean!) shop vac. This comes out slightly warm, which is ideal. On my tank, I also built a home-made oven to cure the tank at 140 degrees [Caswells' recommended temperature] for about 12 hours. ("Home-made oven" sounds fancy, but it wasn't -- it was a big cardboard box with a hair-dryer taped on one end with duct tape and a meat thermometer stuck in the other).

I did my tank in 2008, and it's still fine, so I still recommend this article despite its age. Also, be aware ahead of time that you can't drain a Norton tank through the filler neck the way the Caswells instructions say, because the Norton filler neck sticks down into the tank. The only way to drain the epoxy is through the petcock holes. This is a pain, but you should drain it as much as you can because otherwise you're using up tank capacity.

Duh, I totally agree about the tedium and dry prep but what are you thinking worrying about pouring out **excess** sealer when the idea is to save a tank forever not a few oz of fuel capacity. One of the most leak prone area is the filler neck so I made good and sure a good bit got set up there before turning on its nose to make sure the front injury area got its share of time and thickness. Actually I turned my IS tank upside down to let a fair amount drool out, that's because I put so much in there like a pint I was afraid I'd cover to level of fuel taps standing proud. Tick is keep turning and turning and turning so layer spreads pretty darn evenly so don't lose that much capacity as a lot of the stuff stays stuck to the roof of tank below fuel fill. I also let it drool out filler to make sure continuous layer all the way to outside. I only wiped off the cap sealing surface but can still see nice layer right up to the very edge.

hobot said:

Duh, I totally agree about the tedium and dry prep but what are you thinking worrying about pouring out **excess** sealer when the idea is to save a tank forever not a few oz of fuel capacity. One of the most leak prone area is the filler neck so I made good and sure a good bit got set up there before turning on its nose to make sure the front injury area got its share of time and thickness. Actually I turned my IS tank upside down to let a fair amount drool out, that's because I put so much in there like a pint I was afraid I'd cover to level of fuel taps standing proud. Tick is keep turning and turning and turning so layer spreads pretty darn evenly so don't lose that much capacity as a lot of the stuff stays stuck to the roof of tank below fuel fill. I also let it drool out filler to make sure continuous layer all the way to outside. I only wiped off the cap sealing surface but can still see nice layer right up to the very edge.

Click to expand...

Fellow Nortoneer Hobot is right on here...Caswell will work and will last if the tank is properly prepped and the application process is followed to a "T". Don't worry about pouring out any excess, the amount of capacity you'd lose is insignificant. The trick is to find a comfortable position where you can rotate the tank SLOWLY and THINK about every surface you're trying to coat. Properly mixed Casewell has the consistency of thick honey, so you just can't tilt to get it in the front and then tilt back to try and cover the rear....it's a slow, slow process. Like Steve, I have multiple (3 times) coatings in my original Dunstall tank...each applied just as the previous application was almost cured, but still tacky...did it in 2008...everything's still perfect.

My friend who talked to the Caswels tech guy was told the they think a lot of people are not mixing the stuff well enough, that's one reason for the red dye so you can tell when it's mixed good. They did say done right it is ethonal proof. We have a tumbling machine that is used for the prep work & the tanks sometimes get tumbled in variouse positions for two days. I won't do that to my glass Prody tank as I think it would be to harsh. But it works wonders on steel tanks.