Erratic voltage

jaydee75 said:

I just did a search and found that Shorai is a Lithium IRON battery. Please correct if this is wrong. Tnx,
Jaydee

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Yes, their currently available motorcycle batteries are LifePO4 (Litihium-Iron).

From their site: They can be used with a standard motorcycle charging system, but they also say this:

Yes. HOWEVER, you may NOT use a charger/tender if it has an automatic "desulfation mode", "repair", "recondition", or "recovery" mode, which cannot be turned off. Lead acid charger/tenders can be used for regular maintenance charging and then be disconnected after the battery is fully charged. DO NOT leave the lead acid charger connected to store the battery, because most will NOT maintain the proper voltage for lithium batteries. IMPORTANT- if the LFX battery is deeply discharged below 12.86V a lead acid charger/tender should not be used to recover the battery (balance charging with a BMS-01 is recommended)

Also:

A. Starter batteries of any type contain a large amount of energy. During a short circuit, ALL that energy is released in a matter of seconds, creating an extremely hot arc welder, possibly causing fire or explosion. You MUST be very careful at all times to avoid short circuit of the positive and negative terminals. Do NOT wear jewelry on wrist or neck while handling batteries. INSURE that when installed the positive and negative terminals are properly covered and insulated from the vehicle. Do NOT use carbon fiber battery hold down units, as carbon is an electrical conductor. When replacing a battery, its important to verify that your charging system is working properly and the output voltage is within the recommended range of 13.6-14.4v. At no time should the charging system output be above 15.2v or it can damage the battery.

Be CAREFUL!

Also:

A. Down to about 20 degrees Fahrenheit (-7C) most users find that they can start normally on first crank. If your headlight comes on at key-ON, it is good for the batteries to flow some current before cranking in cold weather. The suggested headlight-on time before cranking depends on the temperature. If starting at 40F/5C, 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at 0F/-17C, leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life. If the engine fails to start on first crank, that first crank has warmed the battery, and the second attempt will be much stronger. Other accessories that can be turned on before cranking can also be used for this purpose, such as heated gear, radio, etc... Insuring that the battery is fully charged after storage also improves first-start performance in cold weather

So, LifePO4 is OK, with precautions. There are still Lithium ION motorcycle batteries available (not from Shorai) - don't buy them!

All that reads avoid shorts and buy the right kind of charger to me.

I was wrong and just feel terrible. Not really.

Turns out the Antigravity battery is LifePo4. Below is a quote right out of the FAQ section on their antigravitybatteries.com website:

We use Lithium Iron Phosphate also called LifePo4. It charges and works perfectly fine with all 12V vehicle systems, provided the stock system is charging correctly.

gortnipper said:

Yeah, I am worried about the Pod. The Lion battery needs replacing anyway I think after 6 years and as I am going on a long trip. I will get it in over the next couple days and check the fuse connections.

if things are still flaky I will pull the wiring on the Pod and test that and the stator. Bithe the stator and pod are about 5yrs.

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Just curious, did you check the pod wiring after?

Supercat said:

Just curious, did you check the pod wiring after?

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Not yet. Been working and today went to the painter to pick up my panels that were matched to my Interstate tank.

Your panels look awesome .

He did some touching up on the tank as well, and gave it a new coat of clear so it looks great too.

Driving home with them all in the car, I had to put down the windows down - they were off gassing so much I was getting high.

Looks like the rectifier has failed and fryed the battery. From experience the BSM does not lie.
The shendegen rectifier is good but large, the Tri Spark Mosfet rectifier is slightly smaller than the Podtronic and way more efficient. 3 or 4 hits of the starter on a MK3 and a couple of miles later the BSM is back to green, and that is with a RM23 stator.
As for batteries, EarthX in the US are doing a greater range of next gen batteries for motorcycles with their onboard cell management in the battery. These you just feed the correct voltage and the battery sorts it all out, unlike finicky LiFe Po4 batteries that have been used for years.
ACCU-24 do a similar version in the EU to the EarthX, but it does not have the built in over voltage protection that the EarthX has.

Tested the Pod today per


Test one had resistance on #2 and #3 of the yellow leads, 71 k ohm and .32 k ohm.

Test two lacked continuity on yellow #1. #2 was .8 m ohm and #3 about 2.8 m ohm.

Test three gave 5.1 ohm, 99 k ohm and .57 m ohm.

Test four had wildly differing results on the three yellows.

Bye bye Pod.

Madnorton said:

Looks like the rectifier has failed and fryed the battery. From experience the BSM does not lie.
The shendegen rectifier is good but large, the Tri Spark Mosfet rectifier is slightly smaller than the Podtronic and way more efficient.

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When you say “rectifier,” is that what you really mean?

Triton Thrasher said:

When you say “rectifier,” is that what you really mean?

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By rectifier read Rectifer/regulator, you would be surprised how many have forgotten or didn't even know that old brit bikes once had a separate rectifier and regulator system. Many moving over to these old bikes from Jap bikes assume it would have a rectifier/regulator. Wish I had a pound for everytime I have been asked if they need to use the Zener with the Podtronic / Boyer or Tri Spark systems.

I have also had a Pod fail, it seems they regulator side fails leading to high voltage output.

Or the other ask - ''I cant find the rectifier on the bike, where is it'' when it usually has a modern replacement in its place.

Their was a time that almost all Suzuki reg/rec boxes failed and caused too-high voltage.

The Honda VFR had issues as well. My buddy replaced his twice. The Shindengen FH020AA is the recommended replacement now. Pretty much bullet proof.

Been using a Shorai batt since '10, initially with the OEM Lucas system/rectifier/Zener and later with the Alton E-start alternator with a Podtronics. No issues whatsoever re the Shorai so if the Trispark setup is for regular flooded batts, it should be fine with a Shorai.

FWIW, a standard charging system is NOT optimum for the Shorai Li Fe. On my bike over the years if I check the static batt voltage, it is usually around 85% of fully charged. But I have never seen any operational issue with that - the Shorai spins the Alton starter effortlessly.

The design nominal for any automotive regulator is about 14.2 volts, which is fine for any type battery. I chased an electrical gremlin for a couple months after doing some wiring mods and ended up attaching a voltmeter to my handlebars to keep an eye on things. The Shorai at rest is typically 13.4 volts fully charged. After starting (cNw e-start) and LED headlamp on it may dip to 12.9 at idle, but just running through 2nd gear brings it up to 13.8. I see 14 volts while riding at 50 mph and 14.5 at 2000 rpm without lights. Sparx 3 phase 210 watt alternator and Shindengen MOSFET r/r.

I owned 4 Suzuki inline 4 motorcycles, non of which had regulator rectifier over voltage issues. Also owned a '87 VFR with no electrical problems. That said, I don't think any of them had over 70K miles on them before I sold them. Just a real world example.

I think what Shorai and other LiFePO4 battery package manufacturers are referring to when they say "standard charging system" is a charging system with modern electrical devices, like the charging systems in post 1990 motorcycles, cars, trucks, boats, and so on. The charging system that early Norton motorcycles had on them is anything but modern. Hence, not a standard charging system. I don't know if the PODtronics qualifies as modern, but it is closer to what I think the battery mfgrs consider standard than Norton OEM for a LiFePO4 battery.

I'm confident the PODtronics and LiFePO4 I'm using will be fine in my old kick start bike. Hmmm, that load of BS reminds me I need to order some inline fuses.

In many cases, you give your regulator (or even your Zener diode) an easier time by keeping the headlight on.

Did you ride the bike in the rain? Do you have resistor wires or plugs or sparkplug caps? I rode in the rain with a Lucas Rita with no resistor components in at all in my spark plug leads, caps or plugs. The upshot was that the system over charged for about 1000 miles. The regulator in question was a podtronics. The battery was AGM. The voltage measuring device was and is a small unit that goes flashing red when overcharging. In the end, my Lucas Rita was fried. I replaced it with a Boyer but could not get the timing to settle into a steady state. To solve that problem I sent the Boyer to Walridge and had it tested. It was fine. The Podtronics regulator was letting the voltage go all over the place and Boyers are sensitive to that.

The theory I am going with is that RF (radio frequency) from my spark plug wires fried the Podtronics regulator which in turn allowed overcharging of the battery/electrical system which took out the Lucas Rita ignition module. The whole problem was then discovered by noticing that a Boyer ignition (which later tested to be good) could not be timed properly. Resistor wires or plugs or sparkplug caps would probably have prevented this series of events.

Dan.

I have a TS ignition, with R-caps. I rode in a steady drizzle the day before, but nothing significant enough to wet the ignition parts.

The Pod is fried, per my tests above. The Shorai is holding a steady charge now, too after putting it on the battery tender. But, it is 6 years old and I bought a new AGM to be safe on my upcoming long ride. $118 insurance.

I just now received a new TS MOSFET reg, which will go in tonight. It is a bit thinner than the Pod, and the fins are not as deep either.

The point of my "riding in the rain" theory is that the RF generated by the ignition because of the presence of water on everything is what took out the Podtronics regulator. I didn't come up with the theory my self but was put onto it by a long time Norton fixer. Any way, no way of knowing in my case or yours. I just know that the Podtronics regulators sometimes go out by allowing too high of a voltage and that does damage down the line.

Your MOSFET regulator should run cooler because it doesn't use resistance to regulate the voltage. My understanding is that it just lets it pile up on the AC side and only lets through what the downstream system needs to maintain 13.8 or however many volts.