Engine number question...

lazyeye6 said:

I have brought 2 out of state bikes here (California). In both cases all the DMV folks cared about was the frame number and collecting the sales tax. They never glanced at engine #. The prices I pay to live here are exorbitant property taxes, high sales taxes, high income taxes and high vehicle road taxes. Thse pay for the nanny state whereby one lives well if one has the money to live here. You couldn't pay me enough to live in mega metropolitan areas of SF Bay Area, Greater LA or Greater San Diego or Greater Sacramento. More rural parts of the state are quite nice when the city folks aren't visiting.

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Did those out of state bikes come with paperwork?

swooshdave said:

I thought they cared more about the frame number than the engine. I wonder if @illf8ed needs to make more friends at the DMV.

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Some people at DMV are just not friendly, others are. You get your number and take your chance.

illf8ed said:

Some people at DMV are just not friendly, others are. You get your number and take your chance.

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I’m disturbingly happy when at the DMV. That seems to sway even the grouchiest. But you’re right, it can be a lottery. I’ve had pretty good luck. I make sure I have all my paperwork at the ready and make it as smooth as possible for them.

swooshdave said:

I’m disturbingly happy when at the DMV. That seems to sway even the grouchiest. But you’re right, it can be a lottery. I’ve had pretty good luck. I make sure I have all my paperwork at the ready and make it as smooth as possible for them.

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Agreed! I download and fill out all forms on my computer and carefully double check everything - only my signature is by hand. Then when I get to the counter I'm very friendly - disarms them.

All the forms don’t help if you’re trying to deal with a machine that has been out of the system for a long time and no title. That’s when the numbers game gets interesting at DMV. I know I shouldn’t get involved with projects that don’t have a pink slip, but there are exceptions for interesting bikes. Most recently this ‘69 750 S I bought is 30 numbers past 131257 the first 750 S made. Bill of sale only and had not been registered since 1976.

illf8ed said:

All the forms don’t help if you’re trying to deal with a machine that has been out of the system for a long time and no title. That’s when the numbers game gets interesting at DMV. I know I shouldn’t get involved with projects that don’t have a pink slip, but there are exceptions for interesting bikes. Most recently this ‘69 750 S I bought is 30 numbers past 131257 the first 750 S made. Bill of sale only and had not been registered since 1976.

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In VA, there is no point even going to the DMV without a title - you'll leave without one - guaranteed!

illf8ed said:

All the forms don’t help if you’re trying to deal with a machine that has been out of the system for a long time and no title. That’s when the numbers game gets interesting at DMV. I know I shouldn’t get involved with projects that don’t have a pink slip, but there are exceptions for interesting bikes. Most recently this ‘69 750 S I bought is 30 numbers past 131257 the first 750 S made. Bill of sale only and had not been registered since 1976.

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marshg246 said:

In VA, there is no point even going to the DMV without a title - you'll leave without one - guaranteed!

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Some states are very strict. VA and NC for sure. I've heard bad things about Ohio. Then you have Vermont who doesn't care.

I have not tried to get a title in Oregon for an untitled bike yet. I have heard stories that it might work. Not sure.

In Washington you can get a lien, you put down a deposit and after three years you get a title. If I can't walk into the Oregon DMV and get a title I will try the Washington route.

swooshdave said:

Some states are very strict. VA and NC for sure. I've heard bad things about Ohio. Then you have Vermont who doesn't care.

I have not tried to get a title in Oregon for an untitled bike yet. I have heard stories that it might work. Not sure.

In Washington you can get a lien, you put down a deposit and after three years you get a title. If I can't walk into the Oregon DMV and get a title I will try the Washington route.

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Story time. A few years back I wanted to buy a Trident from a guy in FL. He had no title and told me to tell the DMV it came from GA and they didn't have titles then. I said that would not work in VA and asked that he get a title. He said, OK, for $50. The next day, he had a clean title. The only restriction was that it couldn't be reassigned for 30 days so I had to wait 30 days to title it in VA.

marshg246 said:

Story time. A few years back I wanted to buy a Trident from a guy in FL. He had no title and told me to tell the DMV it came from GA and they didn't have titles then. I said that would not work in VA and asked that he get a title. He said, OK, for $50. The next day, he had a clean title. The only restriction was that it couldn't be reassigned for 30 days so I had to wait 30 days to title it in VA.

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Sounds like he may have had a title in someone else's name and didn't want to pay for it. Not uncommon. Or it was a lost title.

illf8ed said:

Whoops, the “1” has the wrong font. On another string it was noted Norton engine number “1” characters don’t have the 1 underscore.

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The font is wrong and the spacing and location is off for a Factory stamping. It may be a "repair" stamping with some kind of UK-authority-required stamping in the upper line of characters. I'm going to guess changed engine cases with the change registered with authorities. But not a factory stamping, for sure.

Blewdy Yaink said:

The font is wrong and the spacing and location is off for a Factory stamping. It may be a "repair" stamping with some kind of UK-authority-required stamping in the upper line of characters.

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I'd say it's almost certainly not a "UK authority stamp".
I'd guess it was an exported bike and the stamp was done elsewhere?

L.A.B. said:

I'd say it's almost certainly not a "UK authority stamp".
I'd guess it was an exported bike and the stamp was done elsewhere?

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Interesting. I have read that some authorities in the US require a separate stamp (or stick-on label) if a number on a vehicle cannot be authenticated. If an owner gets to that point, the State's records show that the original number is superseded and from that date, the vehicle registration is linked to the new number. But in the US, most authorities in the 70s used the Certification label (the 16-digit VIN in the internationally recognized format did not become Federally required until 1981). A similar "home-grown" identification scheme is used for items like a home-built trailer or similar, in some states. The suggestion that the "act" stamping is added to indicate an original but unauthenticated number sound possible to me.

There is so much variation between states that it's hard to tell format, but the additional stamping at the top of this engine number does not look like any I've seen in the US, but I'm not familiar with many possible locations.

If I were buying this motorcycle, I'd check the dispatch records to see what they show for the dispatch destination of this motorcycle. I think that there's no issue of this motorcycle not being registerable due to issue of possible lack of legal ownership (at least not just by this engine number), but I'd check carefully. I think I'd hate the idea of being stopped on the side of the road until a theft inspector arrives to look at my motorcycle, shakes his head and makes that noise sucking his teeth, and tells the cop that stopped me that his preliminary finding is that the numbers had been altered and he's ordering my Commando impounded. Far better to have all the t's dotted and the i's crossed before you get to that point!

Blewdy Yaink said:

If I were buying this motorcycle, I'd check the dispatch records to see what they show for the dispatch destination of this motorcycle. I think that there's no issue of this motorcycle not being registerable due to issue of possible lack of legal ownership (at least not just by this engine number), but I'd check carefully.

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As the bike is (now?) in the UK and apparently in use (as it doesn't say otherwise) then it's almost certainly registered although we don't have all that 'title' business to deal with here (or 'DMV' equivalent office to visit) as the UK registration authority (DVLA) isn't concerned with "legal ownership" only who is the "registered keeper".
As long as the frame and engine numbers match what's on the V5C registration document then there shouldn't be a problem.
Unfortunately, the registration plate has been kept out of the photos so it's not possible to check the DVLA database to find when it was first registered in the UK.

Edit: Curious that it's described as a Roadster (perhaps it was?) when it's built as an Interstate.

Went to the DMV, here in South Carolina, to get a title for a Commando purchased in Virginia. A couple of weeks later, a Sheriff's Deputy came to my house and wanted to see the bike. Seems that since the "VIN" on the Virginia title didn't have enough numbers, the DMV computer decided it must be stolen. Took another 6 weeks to get the title because they had to hand carry my paperwork that the computer kept spitting out due to the weird "VIN".

Yakatak said:

Went to the DMV, here in South Carolina, to get a title for a Commando purchased in Virginia. A couple of weeks later, a Sheriff's Deputy came to my house and wanted to see the bike. Seems that since the "VIN" on the Virginia title didn't have enough numbers, the DMV computer decided it must be stolen. Took another 6 weeks to get the title because they had to hand carry my paperwork that the computer kept spitting out due to the weird "VIN".

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I always just add preceding zeros to get to 17 digits, lol. No problem yet.
If it was questioned, I’d be there, like, “um, I dunno, DMV machine musta just added ‘em...”

Yakatak said:

Went to the DMV, here in South Carolina, to get a title for a Commando purchased in Virginia. A couple of weeks later, a Sheriff's Deputy came to my house and wanted to see the bike. Seems that since the "VIN" on the Virginia title didn't have enough numbers, the DMV computer decided it must be stolen. Took another 6 weeks to get the title because they had to hand carry my paperwork that the computer kept spitting out due to the weird "VIN".

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The term VIN was the obstacle I had with the ‘69. At this time period there was a serial number and no such thing as a VIN. Hard to convince the person at the DMV counter so had to go through a few extra layers of authority.

The additional set of numbers look quite professionally done and as has already been stated an underscored numeral 1 is not usual on original Norton stampings. Here in Hong Kong if there is a discrepancy or doubt about a vehicle's number the transport department will allocate a new number with a TD prefix and they themselves will stamp it on the vehicle. It looks like something similar happened here although I have no suggestion as to which jurisdiction or country this example occurred.

illf8ed said:

All the forms don’t help if you’re trying to deal with a machine that has been out of the system for a long time and no title. That’s when the numbers game gets interesting at DMV.

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I've had very good luck at the CA DMV. I registered a Model 88 I imported from some time I spent in New Zealand. The bike was a non-matching basket, and the previous owner had since passed. There was ZERO paperwork, short of a bill of lading from import that didn't show the serial number of frame or engine. There's a special office that only deals with title issues and those folks were very nice and generous with their time helping me navigate getting a title in my name. They even made fun of the people at the Customs Office, saying that they were a bunch of psychopaths, and the title office decided an incomplete bill of lading was good enough, and I got the title in my name with no problems in the end.

All that was needed was an inspection by the CHP, with only a passing interest in the engine number, who was really just making sure it was vaguely motorcycle shaped, and the frame serial number was what I said it was.

Like @swooshdave, I've found a good attitude goes a long way. Whatever attitude you walk up to the counter with is the one you get in return. Except at the Customs Office. They are a bunch of psychopaths.

Just be nice to the Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles clerk, and they’ll be nice to you.

t ingermanson said:

I've had very good luck at the CA DMV. I registered a Model 88 I imported from some time I spent in New Zealand. The bike was a non-matching basket, and the previous owner had since passed. There was ZERO paperwork, short of a bill of lading from import that didn't show the serial number of frame or engine. There's a special office that only deals with title issues and those folks were very nice and generous with their time helping me navigate getting a title in my name. They even made fun of the people at the Customs Office, saying that they were a bunch of psychopaths, and the title office decided an incomplete bill of lading was good enough, and I got the title in my name with no problems in the end.

All that was needed was an inspection by the CHP, with only a passing interest in the engine number, who was really just making sure it was vaguely motorcycle shaped, and the frame serial number was what I said it was.

Like @swooshdave, I've found a good attitude goes a long way. Whatever attitude you walk up to the counter with is the one you get in return. Except at the Customs Office. They are a bunch of psychopaths.

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I’ve had mostly good luck at Cal DMV, but some times it’s like Forest Gump said about stupid. This last case with the ‘69 was one of these. Didn’t help that the six digit matching number on the Command was already being used by a ‘61 Willys.