Electrical Device Identification & Coil Problems

I just installed Amal Premiers, new fuel and lines, but still having a hard time starting the bike (many, many, kicks) and getting it to run/idle when going. I was looking for electrical problems/answers and found this thing (picture attached) under my seat with a frayed wire unattached. I also found a Sparx voltage regulator next to it, which I understand replaces the Zener diode, capacitor, and rectifier that I see on my wiring diagram. Any idea what this is and if I need it?

Also, I have conducted some tests on my 6v coils with the following results:
Right coil primary to primary: 1.9 ohms (a little low?)
Left coil primary to primary: 2.2 ohms (ditto?)
Right coil primary to center core of coil: open circuit/infinite
Left coil primary to center core of coil: 5.4 K ohms (problematic?)
Left coil center core of coil to right coil center core of coil: 10.8 K ohms (test was repeated reading at end of plug wires and reproduced the same value)

Could this be producing weak spark or am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks

Snortin Vache said:

Any idea what this is and if I need it?

Click to expand...

It's a (replacement) 2MC emergency starting capacitor which allows the bike to be started with a discharged battery or even without a battery).
Section J24.

Snortin Vache said:

Could this be producing weak spark or am I looking in the wrong place?

Click to expand...

Probably not the cause of a weak spark, but see if disconnecting it results in any improvement (keep the two brown/blue wires connected together).

Snortin Vache said:

Right coil primary to center core of coil: open circuit/infinite
Left coil primary to center core of coil: 5.4 K ohms (problematic?)

Click to expand...

The left-hand coil reading is about what I'd expect. The right-hand infinite reading is not.

Snortin Vache said:

Also, I have conducted some tests on my 6v coils with the following results:
Right coil primary to primary: 1.9 ohms (a little low?)
Left coil primary to primary: 2.2 ohms (ditto?)
Right coil primary to center core of coil: open circuit/infinite
Left coil primary to center core of coil: 5.4 K ohms (problematic?)
Left coil center core of coil to right coil center core of coil: 10.8 K ohms (test was repeated reading at end of plug wires and reproduced the same value)

Could this be producing weak spark or am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks

Click to expand...

With all wires removed, between the two primary terminals of each you should have 1.6 ohms. Between either primary terminal and the spark plug wire terminal you should have about 5.4k ohms.

Edit: I'm assuming you have an electronic ignition based on your statements. If not, ignore the rest of this:

This: "Right coil primary to center core of coil: open circuit/infinite" says the coil is bad; but, this contradicts that: "Left coil center core of coil to right coil center core of coil: 10.8 K ohms (test was repeated reading at end of plug wires and reproduced the same value)". It seems to me that one of those two statements is wrong - probably the first.

Assuming the first is wrong, then everything is as it should be with one caveat. Assuming standard positive ground, check that the + of one coil has a red wire (ground) and that - of that coil goes to the + of the other.

marshg246 said:

With all wires removed, between the two primary terminals of each you should have 1.6 ohms. Between either primary terminal and the spark plug wire terminal you should have about 5.4k ohms.

Edit: I'm assuming you have an electronic ignition based on your statements. If not, ignore the rest of this:

This: "Right coil primary to center core of coil: open circuit/infinite" says the coil is bad; but, this contradicts that: "Left coil center core of coil to right coil center core of coil: 10.8 K ohms (test was repeated reading at end of plug wires and reproduced the same value)". It seems to me that one of those two statements is wrong - probably the first.

Assuming the first is wrong, then everything is as it should be with one caveat. Assuming standard positive ground, check that the + of one coil has a red wire (ground) and that - of that coil goes to the + of the other.

Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct, my mistake; I must not have had my lead pushed all the way in: Right coil primary to center core of coil was ~5.4 k ohms.

I do have a Boyer black box and it is positive ground. I just checked what you said, and the wiring of the coils and box is correct. Black wire from black box goes to negative of right coil, then positive of right coil to negative of left coil, and positive of left coil to ground, i.e., the coils are wired in series.

I thought some of the resistance readings I got were low based on some things I read elsewhere, but if you both think these numbers are adequate with the coils, do you have any suggestions of where to look next? As the carbs and fuel are brand new, I think I have an electrical problem. My plugs are new, and my battery is above twelve volts. I have read that low voltage on a battery makes hard starting with the Boyer, so as insurance I put jumpers from my battery to a running car's battery to get 14 volts and I still needed to kick like a mule before I finally got it running, and it stalled quickly once I did.

Snortin Vache said:

Yes, you are correct, my mistake; I must not have had my lead pushed all the way in: Right coil primary to center core of coil was ~5.4 k ohms.

I do have a Boyer black box and it is positive ground. I just checked what you said, and the wiring of the coils and box is correct. Black wire from black box goes to negative of right coil, then positive of right coil to negative of left coil, and positive of left coil to ground, i.e., the coils are wired in series.

I thought some of the resistance readings I got were low based on some things I read elsewhere, but if you both think these numbers are adequate with the coils, do you have any suggestions of where to look next? As the carbs and fuel are brand new, I think I have an electrical problem. My plugs are new, and my battery is above twelve volts. I have read that low voltage on a battery makes hard starting with the Boyer, so as insurance I put jumpers from my battery to a running car's battery to get 14 volts and I still needed to kick like a mule before I finally got it running, and it stalled quickly once I did.

Click to expand...

It should start on 1 or 2 kicks. Tickle the carbs until you just see gas. Do not touch the throttle. Do not close the choke. Kick. If nothing, kick one more time.

Ideally, especially if your small, get the engine just past compression and then kick. In any event, you must "think" the kick starter straight down - like follow-thru in sports. If it does not start in two kicks, it's possible you're flooded. In that case, open the throttle quite a bit and kick.

The carbs being new is good but if they are not properly setup, new does not matter. The pilot jet (brass colored) must be screwed all the way in. The air screw (silver) across from the pilot jet should be 1-1/2 turns out from seated. The fuel height in the carbs is important - if too high, you can be flooding. If you bought the carbs recently, they are probably correct as all new aluminum Premier carbs are factory tested - older ones were not.

*IF* you have an ignition problem, it's more likely timing or plugs rather than anything you've checked - assuming you have spark at both plugs. Also, make sure your plug gap is 0.025"

What RPM was it running before it stalled?

Keep telling us more and we'll hone in on it. Your goal:

1) Start on one or two kicks
2) Idle even when cold (around 700 rpm)
3) Idle around 1100 when fully warmed up.
4) When fully warmed up and you blip the throttle, it does not stumble.

When you have that, you have the pilot (idle) portion of the carbs right.

Snortin Vache said:

My plugs are new, and my battery is above twelve volts. I have read that low voltage on a battery makes hard starting with the Boyer,...

Click to expand...

Boyer Micro MkIII or MkIV?
Low voltage can potentially cause serious kickbacks with the old Micro MkIII Boyer, not necessarily hard starting, however, the Boyer MkIV box functions normally down to a lower voltage.

Snortin Vache said:

...so as insurance I put jumpers from my battery to a running car's battery to get 14 volts and I still needed to kick like a mule before I finally got it running, and it stalled quickly once I did.

Click to expand...

Both MkIII and MkIV Boyers should work "above twelve volts" so I doubt the problem is likely to be caused by a lack of voltage in my opinion.

I have the Boyer Micro MkIII, and have had a rare kickback or two, but nothing I would call serious.

So, for the carbs, I have the #19 pilot jet turned all the way in, and when I had it running last (took me a while to get it started) I think I ended up with about 1 1/4 turn out on the air screws (so a quarter of a turn clockwise richer than the starting position of 1 1/2 turns out) on both carbs, but I felt like I could not get a smooth sounding idle <1300 RPM warmed up without risk of sputtering and stalling.

Plugs are gapped at .025" and are Denso W22ES-U (could not find NGK or Champion non-resistor type per manual, but was told by the guy I bought them from that these were a suitable alternative).

I checked the timing and I am 30 degrees fully advanced when I rev it past 4000 or so RPMs. I think Boyer recommends 31 degrees compared to the 28 degrees the manual says with points, so I am right in between.

I certainly have improved my kicking technique since I got it last year, but I still do get the occasional "rejection" where I think I hit it dead on compression and the kickstart doesn't budge (more embarrassing than anything as I try not to topple over from losing my balance). But all in all I typically get a nice full swing.

I do often get a few hits/pops when trying to start the bike, but it is hard to get it to turn over and keep going. I definitely think tickling until the plunger weeps gas helps, and I even did use starter fluid the other day when it was being ornery and it I got it on the second kick.

I think the fuel in the bowls, even though they are brand new, may be too high as I did see some gas on the bottom of both bowls the other day. I reckon I'll take the bowls off and check the float height level.

marshg246 said:

1) Start on one or two kicks
2) Idle even when cold (around 700 rpm)
3) Idle around 1100 when fully warmed up.
4) When fully warmed up and you blip the throttle, it does not stumble.

When you have that, you have the pilot (idle) portion of the carbs right.

Click to expand...

I definitely have never been able to get the bike to idle cold with or without choke. If I don't hold the throttle open for a while I have no chance. Starting the bike cold and keeping it in neutral, how long before it is "warm" and it should idle without having to blip throttle?

I suspect you got a battery issue such as a dead cell...possibly
Inspect battery for bulges
Got another battery you could try ?
My 2 cents....

Snortin Vache said:

I definitely have never been able to get the bike to idle cold with or without choke. If I don't hold the throttle open for a while I have no chance. Starting the bike cold and keeping it in neutral, how long before it is "warm" and it should idle without having to blip throttle?

Click to expand...

Are you sure the choke is open. The lever must strain against the cable to open the choke. Many get it backwards.

Other than for a month in 1968, I've never had a choke on a Amal equipped bike. That includes while in college riding in the winter below freezing.

Once the carbs are setup right, you won't need a choke and you won't want to touch the throttle to start it. There is minimal vacuum at kicking speed - opening the throttle reduces it even further. Tickling brings the gas up in the pilot circuit, but the engine must still suck it in. Reduce the suction and you don't get air and fuel in the cylinder. Many say that they must have the choke on and crack the throttle - think that over - restrict the air but then give it air!

When the idle settles down around 1100 rpm, you are pretty well warmed up. When tuning a newly built bike, I start, ride off right away and when I come back, do all the idle adjusting. All my bikes have Tri-Spark ignition which provides idle stabilization, but I think the modern Boyers do to (never had one so not sure).

Snortin Vache said:

Plugs are gapped at .025" and are Denso W22ES-U (could not find NGK or Champion non-resistor type per manual, but was told by the guy I bought them from that these were a suitable alternative).

Click to expand...

I don't know Boyer, but most electronic ignitions specify resistor plugs or caps. The plugs you have are equivalent to Champion non-resistor N7. If you find that you are supposed to have resistor plugs, Amazon has them.

marshg246 said:

Are you sure the choke is open. The lever must strain against the cable to open the choke. Many get it backwards.

Other than for a month in 1968, I've never had a choke on a Amal equipped bike. That includes while in college riding in the winter below freezing.

Once the carbs are setup right, you won't need a choke and you won't want to touch the throttle to start it. There is minimal vacuum at kicking speed - opening the throttle reduces it even further. Tickling brings the gas up in the pilot circuit, but the engine must still suck it in. Reduce the suction and you don't get air and fuel in the cylinder. Many say that they must have the choke on and crack the throttle - think that over - restrict the air but then give it air!

When the idle settles down around 1100 rpm, you are pretty well warmed up. When tuning a newly built bike, I start, ride off right away and when I come back, do all the idle adjusting. All my bikes have Tri-Spark ignition which provides idle stabilization, but I think the modern Boyers do to (never had one so not sure).

Click to expand...

I am sure the choke is open. I looked at the carbs quite a bit when I was feeding the cables through the caps. I was surprised to learn that the choke spring or ("air valve spring" as Amal calls it) is under compression when the choke not in use (pulled up out of the throat of the carb) and relaxed when the "air valve" or choke is in use.

marshg246 said:

I don't know Boyer, but most electronic ignitions specify resistor plugs or caps. The plugs you have are equivalent to Champion non-resistor N7. If you find that you are supposed to have resistor plugs, Amazon has them.

Click to expand...

I checked and found that my old Boyer Micro MKIII does not need resistor plugs or caps, so I think I'm set. Do you think perhaps the idle speeds you mentioned warm and cold are not possible with this old EI system?

Snortin Vache said:

I checked and found that my old Boyer Micro MKIII does not need resistor plugs or caps, so I think I'm set. Do you think perhaps the idle speeds you mentioned warm and cold are not possible with this old EI system?

Click to expand...

It should idle when warm at around 1100 even with points. I'm guessing the cold idle may be a problem, but I don't know Boyer - if so, then you probably would need to hold it a little open to keep it running. With points you do. The choke is the opposite of helping there.

One thing to check is for air leaks. That's generally not a problem carb to manifold, but sometimes manifold to head. A quick but messy way to check is a little grease smeared all around that junction. The other is the manifold crossover tube. Sometimes they are cracked and not noticed. Any air leak will really mess with starting and idle for the same reason I said earlier.

Another is that the way the throttle cables are on a Norton, they can get caught on the carb top or junction if there is too much slack. The carbs must be sync'ed (slides lift exactly the same) and the cables should have a little slack.

Snortin Vache said:

I am sure the choke is open. I looked at the carbs quite a bit when I was feeding the cables through the caps. I was surprised to learn that the choke spring or ("air valve spring" as Amal calls it) is under compression when the choke not in use (pulled up out of the throat of the carb) and relaxed when the "air valve" or choke is in use.

Click to expand...

Suprises all when they first realize it.

At least you're not like I guy I recently helped. For over 20 years turned his choke on right after his bike started due to thinking he was turning it off. He did a good job of re-jetting and adjusting around the always on choke. He was amazed when I removed the choke, set the carbs up right and he had a much more powerful bike that would finally go over 70 mph (1976 Triumph Bonneville 750).

Snortin Vache said:

I definitely have never been able to get the bike to idle cold with or without choke.

Click to expand...

That's normal in my opinion because the analog/ue Boyer MkIII and MkIV boxes (and other analogue electronic ignitions) do not have built-in idle stabilisation that digital ignitions often have so if something drags down the idle speed (cold thick oil etc.) then the ignition will continue to retard until the engine finally stalls.

Snortin Vache said:

I checked and found that my old Boyer Micro MKIII does not need resistor plugs or caps, so I think I'm set.

Click to expand...

Correct.

Snortin Vache said:

Do you think perhaps the idle speeds you mentioned warm and cold are not possible with this old EI system?

Click to expand...

Perfectly possible with a warm engine. If you adjust the idle speed and mixture before the engine has fully warmed up then it will idle too fast once it has warmed up.

I feel a little guilty even renewing a topic concerning a hard to kickstart 850 after familiarizing myself with the saga of a certain infamous Kiwi... but I reckon I'll post a brief update of my own situation.

So I have since gotten the bike to start cold on the second kick on two recent occasions but I am still facing a problem with hard starting. Just now I was going to go for a short ride and I could not get it to start. Tickled the carbs, no throttle or choke, just past TDC, and swing and a miss. I am not sure if I flooded it or what, but when it is cold, if I do not get it in the first few kicks it will take dozens of kicks. I do open the throttle and try to clear it, but it will not start. I do often get it to hit once or twice, but I cannot seem to "catch" it with the throttle and keep it running. If there is any question of technique: when it is cold I am on the center stand and have little difficulty getting a nice full, momentous swing through. When the engine is warm I have no problem getting it started with one or two kicks off the stand.

The only thing I can point to is my battery, which I leave untended. I checked before starting this evening and it was at 12.16 V, and I checked before throwing in the towel (it was dark anyway) and I was at 11.8 or something. Is my battery just strong enough to potentially start for the first few kicks? Or is something else wrong? My timing is 30 degrees fully advanced with the Boyer, I could retard it a bit, but I thought I would ask you all.

12.16 v battery is NOT fully charged. In fact your battery just may be toast. Think BATTERY!

Is the ign switch original? When I first got my MKII 850, still on points, it had hard starting issues. Turned out to be a poor contact within the original switch. There are threads shows a refurb procedure, but I just renewed with aftermarket pattern Emgo and solved the issue. Now on a Wassell EI, a boyer clone, new Premiers. Be sure to thoroughly go through the new carbs, lost of reports of debris in the idle circuit drillings on new units so that will give you issues. Note there is a change from older Amal's for setting fuel levels, as found on burlen web site. You are best to set actual fuel levels,not just the float position. Done using a clear hose off a spare bowl drain cap with a spigot fitted. Hold the hose against the bowl/body gasket flange and see where fuel level aligns with. I think it was supposed to be right at top of bowl line?

Have you confirmed the timing scale is accurate via a degree wheel on the rotor with outer primary case off and a piston stop in #1 plug hole? Mine was off nearly 1 degree, others report 3-4 degrees off.

How is the electrical grounding of your boyer? Many owners run a direct ground line from boyer to battery and another from engine clynder head/head steady bracket to battery.

How is your intake manifold balance hose? Leaks there can make for a rough idle and may give hard starts.

Btw the Amal guide that came with my new carb set states to crack open throttle at kicking. Works well for my bike. I am running with needle clips in lowest notch to lift needle/richen its flow, has helped general running but I'm on first over bore which may like a bit more richness.

Tornado said:

Is the ign switch original? When I first got my MKII 850, still on points, it had hard starting issues. Turned out to be a poor contact within the original switch. There are threads shows a refurb procedure, but I just renewed with aftermarket pattern Emgo and solved the issue. Now on a Wassell EI, a boyer clone, new Premiers. Be sure to thoroughly go through the new carbs, lost of reports of debris in the idle circuit drillings on new units so that will give you issues. Note there is a change from older Amal's for setting fuel levels, as found on burlen web site. You are best to set actual fuel levels,not just the float position. Done using a clear hose off a spare bowl drain cap with a spigot fitted. Hold the hose against the bowl/body gasket flange and see where fuel level aligns with. I think it was supposed to be right at top of bowl line?

Have you confirmed the timing scale is accurate via a degree wheel on the rotor with outer primary case off and a piston stop in #1 plug hole? Mine was off nearly 1 degree, others report 3-4 degrees off.

How is the electrical grounding of your boyer? Many owners run a direct ground line from boyer to battery and another from engine clynder head/head steady bracket to battery.

How is your intake manifold balance hose? Leaks there can make for a rough idle and may give hard starts.

Btw the Amal guide that came with my new carb set states to crack open throttle at kicking. Works well for my bike. I am running with needle clips in lowest notch to lift needle/richen its flow, has helped general running but I'm on first over bore which may like a bit more richness.

Click to expand...

Tornado,

I did go through the Amals before fitment looking for swarf or other debris and didn't find any. I also took the bowls off the other day thinking this might be a problem and marked .21" down below the top of the bowl using a vernier. My results showed that the fuel level was in both was pretty darn close to .21, although I did not use a water level set up like you suggested.

I have not checked the timing with a degree wheel; never done that but I suppose I'll give it a try if the other things you suggested don't work out.

I'll recheck the ground from the Boyer, but I am pretty sure it is good.

I did replace gaskets and made sure not to over torque manifold connections, but I will check for leaks especially at the balance hose.

As for the needle position, I put both in the middle, but I don't think that should have any effect on starting or idle, right?

Battery, air leaks, Boyer ground, and then timing confirmation. We'll see...